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5,000-year-old sword discovered by archaeology student at a Venetian monastery

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Re: 5,000-year-old sword discovered by archaeology student at a Venetian monastery

#11

Post by mirimir »

mehrdadn wrote: post #10
thaumasiotes wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would guess not just for ceremonial use. The article has words to the effect that swords were "first forged[] both as weapons and as symbols of authority". Of course that can't possibly be true. They were weapons first. Without the use as weapons, there would be no reason to see them as symbols of authority.

Isn't that what a crown is, though? It's not a weapon but it's a symbol of authority.

Weapons come before crowns etc.

Although crowns are presumably abstracted from helmets.

Re: 5,000-year-old sword discovered by archaeology student at a Venetian monastery

#12

Post by macintux »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #8
tomcam wrote: post #5

Appears to be more of a dagger, but you can't fault the ergonomics. Beautifully designed, and I would guess not just for ceremonial use.

> I would guess not just for ceremonial use. The article has words to the effect that swords were "first forged[] both as weapons and as symbols of authority". Of course that can't possibly be true. They were weapons first. Without the use as weapons, there would be no reason to see them as symbols of authority.

Unless the only people who had the resources to control the forges were those in authority.

Re: 5,000-year-old sword discovered by archaeology student at a Venetian monastery

#13

Post by mehrdadn »

mirimir wrote: post #11
mehrdadn wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that what a crown is, though? It's not a weapon but it's a symbol of authority.

Weapons come before crowns etc. Although crowns are presumably abstracted from helmets.

> Weapons come before crowns etc.

I don't think anyone suggested weapons didn't exist before these swords either?

Re: 5,000-year-old sword discovered by archaeology student at a Venetian monastery

#14

Post by beaner »

I wasn't even aware things were really made of metal before like 2,000 years ago. Crazy!

Is there a history of metal somewhere? Bronze, copper, tin, steal, gold, harvesting, forging, etc. It would be an interesting read of history, science, and discovery.

Re: 5,000-year-old sword discovered by archaeology student at a Venetian monastery

#15

Post by thaumasiotes »

macintux wrote: post #12
thaumasiotes wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would guess not just for ceremonial use. The article has words to the effect that swords were "first forged[] both as weapons and as symbols of authority". Of course that can't possibly be true. They were weapons first. Without the use as weapons, there would be no reason to see them as symbols of authority.

Unless the only people who had the resources to control the forges were those in authority.

Good point. That must be why swords and plows are both equally effective symbols of authority.

Forges have always produced utilitarian items for the common man. If, hypothetically, the only thing you could make out of metal was useless, non-weapon swords... then once again there would be no reason to do it at all.

Re: 5,000-year-old sword discovered by archaeology student at a Venetian monastery

#17

Post by thaumasiotes »

mehrdadn wrote: post #13
mirimir wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weapons come before crowns etc. Although crowns are presumably abstracted from helmets.

> Weapons come before crowns etc. I don't think anyone suggested weapons didn't exist before these swords either?

In the Iliad (much more recent than this sword, but nonetheless informative in some ways), swords are symbolic of nothing. The text is very clear on what the symbol of royal authority is -- it's a club. ("Scepter")

I'd be pretty comfortable with the idea that clubs are no more recent than weapons in general.

Re: 5,000-year-old sword discovered by archaeology student at a Venetian monastery

#18

Post by liveoneggs »

beaner wrote: post #14

I wasn't even aware things were really made of metal before like 2,000 years ago. Crazy! Is there a history of metal somewhere? Bronze, copper, tin, steal, gold, harvesting, forging, etc. It would be an interesting read of history, science, and discovery.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chalcolithic

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Age

Re: 5,000-year-old sword discovered by archaeology student at a Venetian monastery

#19

Post by rvz »

Reminds me of the discovery of a 1,500 year old sword at the bottom of a lake thought to be King Arthur's legendary excalibur which was said to have been thrown in that same lake in Cornwall in England [0].

𝔄𝔫𝔡 𝔰𝔬 𝔶𝔢 𝔩𝔢𝔤𝔢𝔫𝔡 𝔬𝔣 𝔈𝔵𝔠𝔞𝔩𝔦𝔟𝔲𝔯 𝔴𝔞𝔰 𝔱𝔯𝔲𝔢...

[0] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/schoolgirl-e...

Re: 5,000-year-old sword discovered by archaeology student at a Venetian monastery

#20

Post by qmmmur »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #15
macintux wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless the only people who had the resources to control the forges were those in authority.

Good point. That must be why swords and plows are both equally effective symbols of authority. Forges have always produced utilitarian items for the common man. If, hypothetically, the only thing you could make out of metal was useless, non-weapon swords... then once again there would be no reason to do it at all.

Just because you control what comes out of the forge doesn't mean you there is material scarcity. What doesn't scream authority like making a sharp and regal piece of metal for no other reason than to display it. It's like you've never heard of jewellery.
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