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JP Morgan economists warn climate crisis is threat to human race

theguardian.com

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Re: JP Morgan economists warn climate crisis is threat to human race

#11

Post by dasil003 »

chrisco255 wrote: post #8
triceratops wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were a lot fewer of them. Life expectancy and standards of living were way lower. Stone age tech meant they couldn't kill each other as efficiently in war over declining resources.

Stone age tech meant they didn't have time to worry about fake crises, life was hard enough, eh? They just took the warm weather that followed the ice age and invented farming. Not bad. Resources aren't declining. Energy is more abundant than ever. Crop yields are way up. The Earth is greener and has more trees than it did just a few decades ago. Basic necessities are covered. There's no basis for alarmism.

So you see no problem with economic externalities and the drive to shorten the lifetime of all goods we produce in order to sell another one as quickly as possible? Pollution and limited resources are not a problem?

Re: JP Morgan economists warn climate crisis is threat to human race

#13

Post by eximius »

chrisco255 wrote: post #4

I wonder how our ancestors made it through the early Holocene, where it was 2-3C warmer, with just stone age technology?

Oh, humans, as a species, will survive. I don't think the race is in danger of dying out.

Our way of life? Billions of lives? Yea, those are in danger.

Re: JP Morgan economists warn climate crisis is threat to human race

#14

Post by triceratops »

chrisco255 wrote: post #8
triceratops wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were a lot fewer of them. Life expectancy and standards of living were way lower. Stone age tech meant they couldn't kill each other as efficiently in war over declining resources.

Stone age tech meant they didn't have time to worry about fake crises, life was hard enough, eh? They just took the warm weather that followed the ice age and invented farming. Not bad. Resources aren't declining. Energy is more abundant than ever. Crop yields are way up. The Earth is greener and has more trees than it did just a few decades ago. Basic necessities are covered. There's no basis for alarmism.

Why do you think it's a "fake" crisis? All of the world's climate scientists (spanning multiple disciplines) are lying or exaggerating...for what exactly? More research grants? They could probably get more money by writing papers denying there's a problem.

"Things are better than ever" is a meaningless statement. The Titanic was going great until it hit that iceberg. Our lookouts have been loudly warning us of this iceberg for decades - and their predictions have been largely correct.

Re: JP Morgan economists warn climate crisis is threat to human race

#15

Post by chrisco255 »

dasil003 wrote: post #11
chrisco255 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stone age tech meant they didn't have time to worry about fake crises, life was hard enough, eh? They just took the warm weather that followed the ice age and invented farming. Not bad. Resources aren't declining. Energy is more abundant than ever. Crop yields are way up. The Earth is greener and has more trees than it did just a few decades ago. Basic necessities are covered. There's no basis for alarmism.

So you see no problem with economic externalities and the drive to shorten the lifetime of all goods we produce in order to sell another one as quickly as possible? Pollution and limited resources are not a problem?

True pollution is a problem. But it's been largely solved in developed countries.

Which resources are you worried about running out?

Re: JP Morgan economists warn climate crisis is threat to human race

#16

Post by triceratops »

chrisco255 wrote: post #15
dasil003 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you see no problem with economic externalities and the drive to shorten the lifetime of all goods we produce in order to sell another one as quickly as possible? Pollution and limited resources are not a problem?

True pollution is a problem. But it's been largely solved in developed countries. Which resources are you worried about running out?

Fresh water. Arable land. Habitable land.

Developed countries hide their pollution slightly better (no belching smokestacks or filthy rivers) but it's still there.[1]

Most people don't live in developed countries. Don't they deserve to have pollution-free living conditions too?

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkeley_Pit#Environmental_eff...

Re: JP Morgan economists warn climate crisis is threat to human race

#17

Post by chrisco255 »

chrisco255 wrote: post #15
dasil003 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you see no problem with economic externalities and the drive to shorten the lifetime of all goods we produce in order to sell another one as quickly as possible? Pollution and limited resources are not a problem?

True pollution is a problem. But it's been largely solved in developed countries. Which resources are you worried about running out?

Fresh water will never run out. Specific regions on the planet will experience drought or floods from time to time but that's the way it's always been. Meanwhile look to Israel and how they've managed to build desalinization plants efficiently and now they have an abundance of fresh water where they used to have very little. Crop yields are up (more than 100% in past few decades), so arable land doesn't appear to be a problem.

I can't reply to below response but no, desalination has gotten much cheaper:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/israel-proves-the...

They use lava rocks and some membranes to filter the salt out.

And no, we don't control the rain.

Re: JP Morgan economists warn climate crisis is threat to human race

#18

Post by chrisco255 »

triceratops wrote: post #16
chrisco255 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True pollution is a problem. But it's been largely solved in developed countries. Which resources are you worried about running out?

Fresh water. Arable land. Habitable land. Developed countries hide their pollution slightly better (no belching smokestacks or filthy rivers) but it's still there.[1] Most people don't live in developed countries. Don't they deserve to have pollution-free living conditions too? 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkeley_Pit#Environmental_eff...

It looks like they're working on the Berkeley Pit: https://www.mtpr.org/post/montanas-berkeley-pit-water-treatm...

But yeah the developing countries do deserve it. However, it remains a complex political issue. How do you declare or enforce regulations in countries outside of our jurisdiction? You can try to convince those countries it's worth it but you can't force them to.

Re: JP Morgan economists warn climate crisis is threat to human race

#19

Post by triceratops »

chrisco255 wrote: post #17
chrisco255 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True pollution is a problem. But it's been largely solved in developed countries. Which resources are you worried about running out?

Fresh water will never run out. Specific regions on the planet will experience drought or floods from time to time but that's the way it's always been. Meanwhile look to Israel and how they've managed to build desalinization plants efficiently and now they have an abundance of fresh water where they used to have very little. Crop yields are up (more than 100% in past few decades), so arable land doesn't appear to be…

> Specific regions on the planet will experience drought or floods

And you don't think it's a problem that entirely preventable human activities are causing this? How would you feel if you lived in a drought-stricken region? The Indian subcontinent is one such region. Historically, and cumulatively, the people living there haven't contributed very much to climate change. But they're the ones that will pay a price for it.

> Meanwhile look to Israel and how they've managed to build desalinization plants efficiently

Desalinization requires a lot of energy and is capital-intensive. Even if it's cheaper than it used to be, it's not cheaper than taking fresh water out of a lake or reservoir, treating it, and piping it. Why should poor countries pay a "desal tax" for a problem they didn't cause?

Are you proposing for developed countries to fund desal plants for developing countries as compensation for causing climate change?

What you're saying is "It's not a problem for me. Tough luck if it is for you".

Re: JP Morgan economists warn climate crisis is threat to human race

#20

Post by triceratops »

chrisco255 wrote: post #18
triceratops wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fresh water. Arable land. Habitable land. Developed countries hide their pollution slightly better (no belching smokestacks or filthy rivers) but it's still there.[1] Most people don't live in developed countries. Don't they deserve to have pollution-free living conditions too? 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkeley_Pit#Environmental_eff...

It looks like they're working on the Berkeley Pit: https://www.mtpr.org/post/montanas-berkeley-pit-water-treatm... But yeah the developing countries do deserve it. However, it remains a complex political issue. How do you declare or enforce regulations in countries outside of our jurisdiction? You can try to convince those countries it's worth it but you can't force them to.

Tariffs and sanctions. "Tax carbon or you can't trade with us. We'll freeze your assets in our banks. We'll get our allies to do the same thing. Any company that trades with you can't do business here." It works to force compliance on many other issues.
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