Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The high cost of a free coding bootcamp

theverge.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 36 posts

Re: The high cost of a free coding bootcamp

#11

Post by manfredo »

untog wrote: post #10
manfredo wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you are on the receiving end of a crap course that doesn't help you get a job is it really good that you'll have to pay for it (when you get a well paying job from entirely unconnected means)? When the alternative is: > if you are on the receiving end of a crap course that doesn't help you get a job is it really good that you'll have to pay for it ( with interest , even if you're still unemployed after taking th…

> When the alternative is Your supposition is that there are two options for everyone: a) go deep into student debt b) go deep into ISA debt and no others. I contend that isn't the case. You could do neither. When you're in danger of getting into serious debt via an ISA to a company that doesn't seem to be competently running courses that will lead to employment it's only sensible to question whether it's worth signi…

There's no "ISA debt". There's no interest racking up. You may not even pay anything if you don't get a well paying job.

Sure, an ISA from a bad program is not good. But at least you're not paying unless you get a well compensated job.

Re: The high cost of a free coding bootcamp

#12

Post by Wowfunhappy »

djsumdog wrote: post #2

30k?! You are honestly better off taking two yeas of night courses at a community college, and it will probably cost you half of that for more classroom time. Bootcamp programs are really crap. Even in a traditional classroom setting, you only get out of it what you put in. I know CompSci majors who graduated only knowing Java and who were totally lost if they had to replace a ram chip in a computer. I knew others wh…

> I know CompSci majors who graduated only knowing Java and who were totally lost if they had to replace a ram chip in a computer.

The rest of your post notwithstanding, I don't see why a CompSci major should need to know how to replace a stick of ram.

Re: The high cost of a free coding bootcamp

#14

Post by djsumdog »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #12
djsumdog wrote: post #2

30k?! You are honestly better off taking two yeas of night courses at a community college, and it will probably cost you half of that for more classroom time. Bootcamp programs are really crap. Even in a traditional classroom setting, you only get out of it what you put in. I know CompSci majors who graduated only knowing Java and who were totally lost if they had to replace a ram chip in a computer. I knew others wh…

> I know CompSci majors who graduated only knowing Java and who were totally lost if they had to replace a ram chip in a computer. The rest of your post notwithstanding, I don't see why a CompSci major should need to know how to replace a stick of ram.

They don't need to. As astronomer doesn't need to know how to repair his or her own personal telescope either. But if you're into the field, it's nice to know how your tools work.

Re: The high cost of a free coding bootcamp

#16

Post by ammanley »

manfredo wrote: post #6
djsumdog wrote: post #2

30k?! You are honestly better off taking two yeas of night courses at a community college, and it will probably cost you half of that for more classroom time. Bootcamp programs are really crap. Even in a traditional classroom setting, you only get out of it what you put in. I know CompSci majors who graduated only knowing Java and who were totally lost if they had to replace a ram chip in a computer. I knew others wh…

I think as far as learning to code, bootcamps aren't much better than following tutorials online. I do, however, think that bootcamps are good at getting people who already know how to code to learn how to code well, and code in a job environment. There's probably a good market for classes aimed at people who have already learned basic coding through online tutorials but now want to refine their skills to the point t…

There are exceptions, I think, when the boot camp instructors are able and willing to impart significant industry knowledge, war stories, and personal teaching time to students. You don't get this at the vast majority of boot camps (not even Hack Reactor these days), but they do exist. That kind of experience isn't the kind that's easy to pick up, and getting it in a highly condensed time frame to facilitate a career change can be a worthwhile investment.

Source: graduate from one of said rare boot camps, and gainfully employed (not on the frontend, though many from my cohort chose that route as well)

Re: The high cost of a free coding bootcamp

#17

Post by alephnan »

> Once, a student asked about the difference between JavaScript array methods, like push versus concat or forEach versus map, the team lead said they were interchangeable. (They are not.)

Technically, push and concat can be augmented to achieve the same thing. Same with forEach and map. Might not be the best fitted screwdriver but it’ll still kinda work.

Re: The high cost of a free coding bootcamp

#18

Post by untog »

manfredo wrote: post #11
untog wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When the alternative is Your supposition is that there are two options for everyone: a) go deep into student debt b) go deep into ISA debt and no others. I contend that isn't the case. You could do neither. When you're in danger of getting into serious debt via an ISA to a company that doesn't seem to be competently running courses that will lead to employment it's only sensible to question whether it's worth signi…

There's no "ISA debt". There's no interest racking up. You may not even pay anything if you don't get a well paying job. Sure, an ISA from a bad program is not good. But at least you're not paying unless you get a well compensated job.

> There's no "ISA debt"

?!?! Of course there is! What are you repaying when you get a high paying job?

Re: The high cost of a free coding bootcamp

#19

Post by manfredo »

untog wrote: post #18
manfredo wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no "ISA debt". There's no interest racking up. You may not even pay anything if you don't get a well paying job. Sure, an ISA from a bad program is not good. But at least you're not paying unless you get a well compensated job.

> There's no "ISA debt" ?!?! Of course there is! What are you repaying when you get a high paying job?

You're paying a percentage of your income, if you're making above a threshold. This is in comparison to debt which has interest that makes the debt increase over time until paid off - regardless of whether you are employed in a well paying job or even whether you're employed at all.

Yes, under both system money is being paid back to someone. But crucially, there's no interest with an ISA. And furthermore, no money is taken until people get a job that pays a certain amount.

Re: The high cost of a free coding bootcamp

#20

Post by mox1 »

djsumdog wrote: post #2

30k?! You are honestly better off taking two yeas of night courses at a community college, and it will probably cost you half of that for more classroom time. Bootcamp programs are really crap. Even in a traditional classroom setting, you only get out of it what you put in. I know CompSci majors who graduated only knowing Java and who were totally lost if they had to replace a ram chip in a computer. I knew others wh…

I'm currently teaching a Bootcamp by one of the major players in this space. 100% in classroom. On week 12 of 24. It's a side / fun job for me. Not my day job.

While I disagree they are "crap", it's definitely a what you get out of it is what you put in situation.

I have students who knew very little about the subject matter, put in a ton of effort and are rocking. I have other students who knew some, put in 0 effort, and are clearly struggling / stopped caring.

I feel that I'm basically a long-term tour guide for the subject matter (Cyber Security in this case). I absolutely cannot teach the ins and outs of all aspects of the subject matter. I regularly remark "I could probably teach a class on this thing we spent 10 mins talking about".

What I feel I can do (and actually do) is give them a subject or concept, introduce it, and let them run with it. I'm then available to answer any questions, provide lots and lots of anecdotes about the reality / theory of theses subjects.

We definitely move fast and skip over more theoretical things...but I think the students want that. I spent 1 day talk about the OSI 7 layer model...in college I spent weeks learning about that.

Post reply on HN