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Air-Traffic Control Is in the Midst of a Major Change from Radar to GPS

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Re: Air-Traffic Control Is in the Midst of a Major Change from Radar to GPS

#11

Post by elil17 »

yingw787 wrote: post #8

To an extent, this sounds terrifying. The first thing that jumped to my mind is that GPS be jammed or spoofed. In fact, the U.S. military in its shift away from COIN to great power competition in possibly highly contested environments is training to have less reliance on GPS: https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-01-26/usaf-begins-massiv... Radar can be jammed too, but I would guess the EM signature powerful enough to…

I’d feel a lot more comfortable if they retained RADAR as a backup - why not have both?

Re: Air-Traffic Control Is in the Midst of a Major Change from Radar to GPS

#12

Post by knodi123 »

rocqua wrote: post #2

How long until radar becomes an afterthought, and we get an issue because a transponder has failed?

I took flight school a few years ago, and had to learn to tune in non-directional radio beacons, and use VHF Omni-Directional Range tools for navigation. I wasn't allowed to use the GPS until I demonstrated mastery of the others.

Considering that, I suspect the aviation industry will keep both systems working for a surprisingly long time.

Re: Air-Traffic Control Is in the Midst of a Major Change from Radar to GPS

#13

Post by kevstev »

coldcode wrote: post #5

The same GPS the US Government reserves the right to reduce the precision when they feel like it? Seems risky idea to assume they will never do this.

Isn't low precision something like +/- 15 feet? For ATC, that seems more than good enough when they keep jets a mile+ apart. It just needs to be more precise than radar.

Re: Air-Traffic Control Is in the Midst of a Major Change from Radar to GPS

#14

Post by code4tee »

Radar isn’t going away. This article talks as if ADS-B is replacing radar, which it’s not. It’s enhancing radar where radar coverage exists and providing coverage on traffic where radar coverage currently does not exist (usually lower altitudes away from major airports and over the ocean).

Re: Air-Traffic Control Is in the Midst of a Major Change from Radar to GPS

#15

Post by freeone3000 »

yingw787 wrote: post #8

To an extent, this sounds terrifying. The first thing that jumped to my mind is that GPS be jammed or spoofed. In fact, the U.S. military in its shift away from COIN to great power competition in possibly highly contested environments is training to have less reliance on GPS: https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-01-26/usaf-begins-massiv... Radar can be jammed too, but I would guess the EM signature powerful enough to…

Radar has been jammed in the past by accident, since home routers now operate on the same band. See https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/09/fcc-a... . 5G coming in doesn't improve matters. GPS is actually reserved, so there's going to be a lot less accidental interference.

Re: Air-Traffic Control Is in the Midst of a Major Change from Radar to GPS

#16

Post by stephen_g »

elil17 wrote: post #11
yingw787 wrote: post #8

To an extent, this sounds terrifying. The first thing that jumped to my mind is that GPS be jammed or spoofed. In fact, the U.S. military in its shift away from COIN to great power competition in possibly highly contested environments is training to have less reliance on GPS: https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-01-26/usaf-begins-massiv... Radar can be jammed too, but I would guess the EM signature powerful enough to…

I’d feel a lot more comfortable if they retained RADAR as a backup - why not have both?

I can’t read the article (paywalled), but I would expect primary radar isn’t going anywhere around airports.

We still have it, and our commercial planes have been required to have ADS-B transponders here for more than a decade. This is just for en-route tracking.

Re: Air-Traffic Control Is in the Midst of a Major Change from Radar to GPS

#17

Post by adventured »

elil17 wrote: post #11
yingw787 wrote: post #8

To an extent, this sounds terrifying. The first thing that jumped to my mind is that GPS be jammed or spoofed. In fact, the U.S. military in its shift away from COIN to great power competition in possibly highly contested environments is training to have less reliance on GPS: https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-01-26/usaf-begins-massiv... Radar can be jammed too, but I would guess the EM signature powerful enough to…

I’d feel a lot more comfortable if they retained RADAR as a backup - why not have both?

They're not doing away with radar and it's not going to be a backup. They're going to use both.

Re: Air-Traffic Control Is in the Midst of a Major Change from Radar to GPS

#18

Post by mc32 »

o-__-o wrote: post #9
mattlutze wrote: post #3

If there's anyone in the air control technology industry here, I'm curious what parts of this change get you really excited, and which parts get you really nervous?

The cost. This affects general aviation as older planes will require avionics upgrades. Otherwise I’m excited for the sheer amount of data that will be made available to the public. Now you will be able to track all FAA registered planes

So no more low flying smugglers into and out of Canada/Mexico... wonder how they will adapt (beside going dark though they’d notice someone going dark after takeoff).

Re: Air-Traffic Control Is in the Midst of a Major Change from Radar to GPS

#19

Post by adatavizguy »

yingw787 wrote: post #8

To an extent, this sounds terrifying. The first thing that jumped to my mind is that GPS be jammed or spoofed. In fact, the U.S. military in its shift away from COIN to great power competition in possibly highly contested environments is training to have less reliance on GPS: https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-01-26/usaf-begins-massiv... Radar can be jammed too, but I would guess the EM signature powerful enough to…

We still maintain Loran C[0]. Interesting to note receivers have been developed to grab the radio signal from all available stations, up to 40, and triangulate location with eLoran. It's a nice to have as backup to GPS however I'm not sure if it is effective against jamming or spoofing. So, the navy still teaches celestial navigation to officers. [1]

EDIT: Apparently Loran C was discontinued in 2010.

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loran-C [1] https://www.stripes.com/news/break-out-the-sextant-navy-teac...

Re: Air-Traffic Control Is in the Midst of a Major Change from Radar to GPS

#20

Post by sparker72678 »

coldcode wrote: post #5

The same GPS the US Government reserves the right to reduce the precision when they feel like it? Seems risky idea to assume they will never do this.

This isn't about using GPS as the only navigation aid in an airplane. It's about augmenting the current air traffic system with additional, more accurate data to help manage airspace.

ADS-B doesn't change anything about how a plane navigates. That's still done with a plethora of redundant instruments, all working together.

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