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F1 Engine Power Secrets (2000)

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Re: F1 Engine Power Secrets (2000)

#11

Post by CWuestefeld »

ovi256 wrote: post #6
simonsarris wrote: post #2

> Turbochargers have come and gone and there hasn't been a switch to two-stroke or rotary, scotch yoke engines This is tangential to the article but these things are not in F1 because they are bad but because several of the configurations are too good. Most of the above are banned. Today only 4-Stroke engines with reciprocating pistons are permitted in F1. See page 12: http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/C5F0793…

Yeah, but FIA also has a mandate to keep the race safe. So it tries to restrict maximum speed and power, without killing the sport. For example, air inlets have a maximum area limit. This clearly restricts air intake. F1 is not the only sport with such restriction. The Tour de France has imposed minimum bike weights and the actual 2 wheel upright bike configuration, which is far from optimal. All other cycling compet…

If the need is to limit power, then why not directly limit power: make a rule stating "no more than 600bhp" or something like that?

Improved technologies could still flourish. If a new approach could deliver more than the power limit, it might instead be re-tuned to provide better durability or better fuel efficiency or lighter weight.

But the FIA has interfered with any of these possible paths of innovation, because it's thinking more like a government and less like a group whose very purpose is to compete.

Re: F1 Engine Power Secrets (2000)

#12

Post by eftpotrm »

CWuestefeld wrote: post #3
simonsarris wrote: post #2

> Turbochargers have come and gone and there hasn't been a switch to two-stroke or rotary, scotch yoke engines This is tangential to the article but these things are not in F1 because they are bad but because several of the configurations are too good. Most of the above are banned. Today only 4-Stroke engines with reciprocating pistons are permitted in F1. See page 12: http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/C5F0793…

I agree with your sadness over the FIA's micromanagement of design. I remember the cars when I was growing up, like the Brabham fan car ( https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Brabham_BT46 ) or the Tyrrell 6-wheeler ( https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Tyrrell_P34 ) We've lost a lot, both in terms of the pure entertainment of seeing the new ideas, and in terms of lost opportunities for improving…

From a pure engineering perspective I absolutely agree. I'm too young to remember the P34 or BT46 in person but the shock of seeing different approaches is definitely sadly missed.

In sporting terms though, I (sadly) think they've gone down the right general path. Partly for containing safety as there's no denying that some of the developments have been less than ideally safe to put it delicately - the idea of the combined evolution of an MP4 ground-effect car with the 1500BHP Honda V6 turbo, but with another 25 years of development, just wouldn't be manageable or safely driveable with the lateral G it could generate. Also though, for cost containment - F1 had spent too long going up expensive blind alleys that served no competition benefit.

This is a benefit of LMP racing though for me, which I love to watch. The diesel cars may sound a bit odd but the sight of a Peugeot 908, Audi R10 and Lola Aston LMP1 thundering through the Becketts-Maggots complex while picking their way through the GTs is just awesomely impressive, and you can continue to see genuine differentiation and innovation in the chassis.

Re: F1 Engine Power Secrets (2000)

#13

Post by CWuestefeld »

eftpotrm wrote: post #10

F1 anorak - that article is years out of date. You can tell that anyway from the tech but when it starts talking about the new ruling for 2001.... Much of the core technology isn't that different, significantly because they first restricted and then effectively froze development a few years ago, but the engines aren't 3l V10s any more but 2.4l V8s. In the time of the 3l V10s, from memory they peaked at over 900bhp. F…

The real shock though is the noise;

I've been to one F1 race, sitting at turn 1 in Shanghai. There was a TV helicopter maybe 50 meters over our heads -- and its noise was completely drowned out by the cars' engines.

Re: F1 Engine Power Secrets (2000)

#14

Post by mpakes »

eftpotrm wrote: post #10

F1 anorak - that article is years out of date. You can tell that anyway from the tech but when it starts talking about the new ruling for 2001.... Much of the core technology isn't that different, significantly because they first restricted and then effectively froze development a few years ago, but the engines aren't 3l V10s any more but 2.4l V8s. In the time of the 3l V10s, from memory they peaked at over 900bhp. F…

Regarding the recognizability of the engine technology - it's fascinating to know how much materials science technology has filtered down from F1 into road-going cars.

The high-revving (9000RPM) F20C1 Inline-4 from the Honda S2000 has a peak piston speed that matches the highest-revving F1 engines at 25 m/s. The BMW S54B32 Inline-6 from the E46 M3 nearly matches the naturally-aspirated efficiency of F1 engines, at 14.3 bar mean-effective pressure (MEP).

We can also thank F1 and similar racing series for composite cylinder liners, titanium valve springs, hydraulically actuated cams (e.g. BMW's Double-VANOS), hydraulically actuated clutches (e.g. BMW's Sequential Manual Gearbox), dual-clutch transmissions (e.g. Audi and BMW Dual-Sequential Gearboxes), ceramic-composite brake rotors (e.g. Porsche PCCB), direct port fuel injection, etc.

Re: F1 Engine Power Secrets (2000)

#15

Post by ck2 »

You don't even have to get exotic to see it's all about how much you want to spend in technology to get something out of an engine.

Ford makes a 65mpg engine with good performance in Europe.

They refuse to sell it in the USA because it would not be as profitable for them, even when it's made in Mexico.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_37/b40990604...

So basically we still drive 30mpg cars.

Maybe when gas hits $5/gallon that will change.

Re: F1 Engine Power Secrets (2000)

#16

Post by jcoby »

mpakes wrote: post #5

One thing to keep in mind.. this article about 10 years old. The current engine configuration is a 90-deg 2.4L V8, rev-limited to 18,000 RPM. Typical peak power output is around 700bhp. Additionally, a team is allowed to use a maximum of 8 engines per season without penalty, which forces teams to run the engine more conservatively. This specification is frozen until the 2013 season. Over the years, teams come up with…

You need to go back to the 80s to see when power really peaked. There were 1.5L engines in the mid 80s that produced in excess of 1,500HP in race trim. There is one on display at the BMW factory in SC that overran the dyno in qualifying trim. It's a tiny little thing surrounded by two giant turbos and intercoolers.

Re: F1 Engine Power Secrets (2000)

#17

Post by mpakes »

jcoby wrote: post #16
mpakes wrote: post #5

One thing to keep in mind.. this article about 10 years old. The current engine configuration is a 90-deg 2.4L V8, rev-limited to 18,000 RPM. Typical peak power output is around 700bhp. Additionally, a team is allowed to use a maximum of 8 engines per season without penalty, which forces teams to run the engine more conservatively. This specification is frozen until the 2013 season. Over the years, teams come up with…

You need to go back to the 80s to see when power really peaked. There were 1.5L engines in the mid 80s that produced in excess of 1,500HP in race trim. There is one on display at the BMW factory in SC that overran the dyno in qualifying trim. It's a tiny little thing surrounded by two giant turbos and intercoolers.

Of course you're right about this.. the turbocharged era produced incredible engine output. I worded my comment poorly.. I meant to convey that the power output of the 3.0L V10 format peaked in the mid-2000s.

Re: F1 Engine Power Secrets (2000)

#18

Post by klinquist »

CWuestefeld wrote: post #13
eftpotrm wrote: post #10

F1 anorak - that article is years out of date. You can tell that anyway from the tech but when it starts talking about the new ruling for 2001.... Much of the core technology isn't that different, significantly because they first restricted and then effectively froze development a few years ago, but the engines aren't 3l V10s any more but 2.4l V8s. In the time of the 3l V10s, from memory they peaked at over 900bhp. F…

The real shock though is the noise; I've been to one F1 race, sitting at turn 1 in Shanghai. There was a TV helicopter maybe 50 meters over our heads -- and its noise was completely drowned out by the cars' engines.

Indeed. At the French Grand Prix (Magny-Cours) in 2002... I was 10th row off of the front straight. I was trying to shove napkins in my ears.

Any F1 fans should download the UK Top Gear season 15 episode 5 and watch the last 15 minutes - a short tribute to Ayrton Senna. It's tremendous.

Re: F1 Engine Power Secrets (2000)

#19

Post by kinetik »

jcoby wrote: post #16
mpakes wrote: post #5

One thing to keep in mind.. this article about 10 years old. The current engine configuration is a 90-deg 2.4L V8, rev-limited to 18,000 RPM. Typical peak power output is around 700bhp. Additionally, a team is allowed to use a maximum of 8 engines per season without penalty, which forces teams to run the engine more conservatively. This specification is frozen until the 2013 season. Over the years, teams come up with…

You need to go back to the 80s to see when power really peaked. There were 1.5L engines in the mid 80s that produced in excess of 1,500HP in race trim. There is one on display at the BMW factory in SC that overran the dyno in qualifying trim. It's a tiny little thing surrounded by two giant turbos and intercoolers.

It was more like 1,300 HP in qualifying trim and 850 HP in race trim.

Re: F1 Engine Power Secrets (2000)

#20

Post by mberning »

CWuestefeld wrote: post #11
ovi256 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but FIA also has a mandate to keep the race safe. So it tries to restrict maximum speed and power, without killing the sport. For example, air inlets have a maximum area limit. This clearly restricts air intake. F1 is not the only sport with such restriction. The Tour de France has imposed minimum bike weights and the actual 2 wheel upright bike configuration, which is far from optimal. All other cycling compet…

If the need is to limit power, then why not directly limit power: make a rule stating "no more than 600bhp" or something like that? Improved technologies could still flourish. If a new approach could deliver more than the power limit, it might instead be re-tuned to provide better durability or better fuel efficiency or lighter weight. But the FIA has interfered with any of these possible paths of innovation, because…

There is a lot that goes into engine performance rather than just raw power. This is why the rules become so intricate and convoluted.
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