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Software Disenchantment (2018)

tonsky.me

11–20 of 504 posts

Re: Software Disenchantment (2018)

#11
> How is that ok?

Probably because a browser like FF has the goal to load and display arbitrary dynamic content in realtime like a reddit infinite scroll with various 4k videos and ad bullshit, whereas the game has the goal to render a known, tested number of pre-downloaded assets in realtime.

Also on shitty pages the goal is different-- load a bunch of arbitrary adware programs and content that the user doesn't want, and only after that display the thing they want to read.

Also, you can click a link somewhere in your scrolling that opens a new, shitty page where you repeat the same crazy number of net connections, parsing ad bullshit, and incidentally rendering the text that the user wants to read.

If you want to compare fairly, imaging a game character entering a cave and immediately switching to a different character like Spiderman and inheriting all the physics and stuff from that newly loaded game. At that point the bulk of your gameplay is going to be loading new assets and you're back to the same responsiveness problems of the shitty web.

Edit: clarification

Re: Software Disenchantment (2018)

#12
post #9

I totally agree with him that it's awful, but I think the problem is that making things efficient is expensive in terms of time and having to hire expertise. Evidently efficiency just doesn't have enough return on investment for companies to care. The thing about looking back at the windows 95 era and comparing it to now, is that windows 95 needed to be efficient to be usable, windows 10 doesn't. The exception would…

But what real enhancements does Windows 10 provide, which couldn't have simply been done as patches to Windows 7, keeping the same main structure and layout and overall design, but just continually improving it, the way Henry Ford did with the Model T for 20+ years?

For that matter, one could for example take the Windows NT 4.0 source code, add in drivers for the necessary hardware, fix boot code, linking, etc to be compatible with late model computers, spruce up the UI with better font rendering, antialiasing, 24-bit color wallpaper, OpenGL rendering even--and in the end, you'd have something just as functional as Win 7/10 but at 1/4 of the bloat.

This sort of thing would be technically very easy to do. It's much easier than the status quo of continually reinventing the wheel. So why, oh why, is there this overpowering desire to continually throw out good code and replace it with heavier, more bloated junk, which doesn't really offer any real increase in functionality?

Re: Software Disenchantment (2018)

#13
post #10

Everyone is so angry. Isn't this the the world of ubiquitous code and unlimited resources we wanted? Not everything needs to be super efficient. Most things are tuned for production cost and time. Efficient code isn't going anywhere. Relax guys.

I'll relax when I can get through the day without fighting some idiotic organizations excuse for a web form or attention hogging pop ups or, god help me, what else?!

We shouldn't have to put up with all this shit. That's the point.

Re: Software Disenchantment (2018)

#14

To put a finer point on it, software today is absolute garbage. I've been screaming about this for decades. All of this bloated 'shitware' today is the result of it having been written by people who a) have no deeper understanding of what the computer is actually doing; also known as typical Python/Java/etc/etc/etc programmers, and/or b) simply not giving a damn about conservation of resources--as further evidenced b…

I like calling regulations, "protections" in some circumstances. And here we are, awaiting some new protections.

My "oasis" is just text files in git, or photos in directories for the most part. The challenge is integrating with others and my god damn iPhone.

Re: Software Disenchantment (2018)

#16

To put a finer point on it, software today is absolute garbage. I've been screaming about this for decades. All of this bloated 'shitware' today is the result of it having been written by people who a) have no deeper understanding of what the computer is actually doing; also known as typical Python/Java/etc/etc/etc programmers, and/or b) simply not giving a damn about conservation of resources--as further evidenced b…

> this bloated 'shitware' today is the result of it having been written by people who a) have no deeper understanding of what the computer is actually doing; also known as typical Python/Java/etc/etc/etc programmers, and/or b) simply not giving a damn about conservation of resources

Much of the blame lies with bloated frameworks, such as Electron, rather than with the developer who uses the framework. You've covered this under Option B.

This topic cropped up recently on a Show HN. Someone built a Slack client for Windows 3.1. [0] It uses a tiny fraction of the memory used by the official Electron-based client, of course.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21832815

Re: Software Disenchantment (2018)

#17
post #8

I agree it's all slower and sucks. But I don't think it's solely a technical problem. 1/ What didn't seem to get mentioned was the speed to market. It's far worse to build the right thing no one wants, than to build the crappy thing that some people want a lot. As a result, it makes sense for people to leverage electron--but it has consequences for users down the line. 2/ Because we deal with orders of magnitude with…

Maybe we should enforce some guidelines, and sponsor some programs to address these issues.

There's ways to develop working software, but not if it's all locked behind closed OSes and other bullshit.

Re: Software Disenchantment (2018)

#19

To put a finer point on it, software today is absolute garbage. I've been screaming about this for decades. All of this bloated 'shitware' today is the result of it having been written by people who a) have no deeper understanding of what the computer is actually doing; also known as typical Python/Java/etc/etc/etc programmers, and/or b) simply not giving a damn about conservation of resources--as further evidenced b…

You sound a hell of a lot like the TempleOS guy.

Re: Software Disenchantment (2018)

#20
> Would you buy a car if it eats 100 liters per 100 kilometers? How about 1000 liters?

I think the analogy here is backwards. The better question is "how much would you prioritize a car that used only 0.05 liters per 100km over one that used 0.5? What about one that used only 0.005L?". I'd say that at that point, other factors like comfort, performance, base price, etc. become (relatively) much more important.

If basic computer operations like loading a webpage took minutes rather than seconds, I think there would be more general interest in improving performance. For now though, most users are happy-enough with the performance of most software, and other factors like aesthetics, ease-of-use, etc. are the main differentiators (admittedly feature bloat, ads, tracking, etc. are also a problem, but I think they're mostly orthogonal to under-the-hood performance).

These days, I think most users will lose more time and be more frustrated by poor UI design, accidental inputs, etc. than any performance characteristics of the software they use. Hence the complexity/performance overhead of using technologies that allow software to be easily iterated and expanded are justified, to my mind (though we should be mindful of technology that claims to improve our agility but really only adds complexity).

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