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The Ecosystem Is Moving [video]

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Re: The Ecosystem Is Moving [video]

#11
Great talk. It could be an Urbit ad since most if not all of the mentioned problems (and many more) are exact reasons it was designed the way it is.

Stagnation of development is caused by fragmentation of platforms. For every app we need to develop the same app over and over and over, and then keep them in sync. That's why we need a precise, unified, and well designed OS/VM layer. Only then we can run and update the same app on many systems with ease.

The reason why it takes so many engineers is the byzantine stack of layers we've developed over the years and platform fragmentation. Which compounds with the fact that every decentralized app has to develop the same set of things over and over. If only the OS/VM layer had it ... built in - like in Urbit.

Censorship resistance problem described in the talk is not an issue if the ID is decoupled from the infrastructure. Something that I still don't understand why federated protocols don't get (I'm looking at you Mastodon). If you make them scarce and transferable it will additionally help fight the abuse.

The list would go on, but it has all been described many times.

Re: The Ecosystem Is Moving [video]

#12
post #10
post #3

In this video, Moxie Marlinspike--the developer of Signal, someone who has been consistently extremely negative on not just the idea of federated and decentralized systems but of open protocols and alternative clients for centralized systems (to the point where it shocks me he still does any development as open source, given how hard he pushes on the idea that people who fork his clients are actively doing something…

> ludicrously popular chat systems, such as Kik, that were largely popular because they did not use phone numbers at all Wait? When was Kik ludicrously popular? Usernames clearly wasn't a feature that kept users coming back as the service almost shutdown in October before being sold off. There are certainly some people that would prefer a username or other identifier, but avoiding yet another invitation fest by using…

> Wait? When was Kik ludicrously popular?

Kik was ludicrously popular among 16-24 year olds (and, both sadly and notably, I believe people even quite a bit younger); one of the main reasons cited is because your parents couldn't find you easily using your phone number (as they could on WhatsApp) or your real name (as they could on Facebook), etc. FWIW, I'm way too old to have used it myself (and was just as shocked at how popular it was as you seem to be when I learned of its existence at age 36).

> Usernames clearly wasn't a feature that kept users coming back as the service almost shutdown in October before being sold off.

I mean, the story is that Kik had a hard time figuring out how to monetize its user community, particularly given how many kids were using it, and so they decided to try launching a cryptocurrency at the height of the crypto bubble in 2017, which led to a $100 million dollar fine from the SEC due to irregularities in their offering... they got to the point of being so screwed that they decided to try crowdfunding their legal defense against the SEC, and so shut down Kik and fire most of their staff to conserve cash (where they were still in the "lose money on massive growth" phase of "maybe one day we will figure out how to sell ads or get bought by Facebook" trajectory).

However, that's the story; when I started looking into it (as I cared a lot about their SEC issues, as someone else who was working on a cryptocurrency project) I noticed they were also under some serious investigation for what was looking like child trafficking on their largely anonymous network of kids, and so one might want to consider the idea that this whole SEC SNAFU served as a good excuse for shutting down a business arm that was actually about to land them in much hotter water with the FBI than their offering was landing them with the SEC without actively coming out and saying "we looked into it and uhh... it was bad". Either way, AFAIK they didn't shut Kik down because it wasn't popular.

> Also, who wants to fight for usernames again?

Usernames aren't the only way to deal with identity. I'm not advocating for usernames (and in fact have some serious issues with them: I have on many occasions--all of in talks, on panels, and in comment threads--argued that the usage of permanent and unique chosen identifiers is actually immoral for a number of reasons I won't delve into again here), but the idea that phone numbers are somehow fundamentally better--particularly this argument comparing them to e-mail addresses--makes no sense given that essentially no other popular social network bootstrapped off of your identity being a phone number; the closest you could argue is that they supported mass address book contact matching, but that was always optional and somehow those services succeeded.

(Really, I think the argument Moxie was making was just fundamentally flawed as it was a broken analogy: he was trying to compare it to e-mail addresses as if e-mail were the competitor, but most people treat e-mail as the backdrop reality of identity not a viable competitor to their real time chat app, whether or not you want to argue they "should" see those as competitors. He then just fails to really tie the argument together with how any of these other social network services bootstrapped, and comes to this conclusion that the phone number is somehow the perfect identity. Like, if you compare phone numbers to e-mail addresses from the perspective of a service that is neither a phone company nor an e-mail service I think you get a very different answer than if you compare Signal trying to rely on third-party phone numbers to e-mail services relying on first-party e-mail usernames.)

Re: The Ecosystem Is Moving [video]

#13
post #10
post #3

In this video, Moxie Marlinspike--the developer of Signal, someone who has been consistently extremely negative on not just the idea of federated and decentralized systems but of open protocols and alternative clients for centralized systems (to the point where it shocks me he still does any development as open source, given how hard he pushes on the idea that people who fork his clients are actively doing something…

> ludicrously popular chat systems, such as Kik, that were largely popular because they did not use phone numbers at all Wait? When was Kik ludicrously popular? Usernames clearly wasn't a feature that kept users coming back as the service almost shutdown in October before being sold off. There are certainly some people that would prefer a username or other identifier, but avoiding yet another invitation fest by using…

Usernames were used by Skype (I don't remember if it requires a phone number now) and are used by email. Email is probably still the most ubiquitous messaging platform.

I don't agree that phone numbers are good for onboarding: sending the first message to somebody on whatsapp requires asking for the phone number. Sending the first email requires asking for the email. Sending the first Skype message requires asking for the username. Not much different.

Whatsapp gives the extra bonus of being able to phone call and send sms to the contact and have the information required to add it to other networks. Maybe this is a power I wouldn't grant to all of my whatsapp contacts but I'm forced to of I want to use it.

Finally, it's much easier to change a username and reset my personal social network for a single messaging service than changing my phone number and lose most of them.

Re: The Ecosystem Is Moving [video]

#14
post #3

In this video, Moxie Marlinspike--the developer of Signal, someone who has been consistently extremely negative on not just the idea of federated and decentralized systems but of open protocols and alternative clients for centralized systems (to the point where it shocks me he still does any development as open source, given how hard he pushes on the idea that people who fork his clients are actively doing something…

Does Signal have any advantages over Riot? Riot is a popular client, though not the only one. Competition is good.

http://riot.im/

Re: The Ecosystem Is Moving [video]

#15
post #11

Great talk. It could be an Urbit ad since most if not all of the mentioned problems (and many more) are exact reasons it was designed the way it is. Stagnation of development is caused by fragmentation of platforms. For every app we need to develop the same app over and over and over, and then keep them in sync. That's why we need a precise, unified, and well designed OS/VM layer. Only then we can run and update the…

> That's why we need a precise, unified, and well designed OS/VM layer. Only then we can run and update the same app on many systems with ease.

Is this not exactly why the web has become a platform for apps? And wouldn’t all of the issues inherent in the web also then apply to this OS you describe?

Re: The Ecosystem Is Moving [video]

#17

Why is he saying that email is not encrypted? Isn't it actually encrypted when traveling from server to client? Who uses ports without SSL or TSL anymore?

He is referencing end to end encryption. Google can see Your to/from/subject/metadata headers even if you bother to use gpg

Re: The Ecosystem Is Moving [video]

#18

Why is he saying that email is not encrypted? Isn't it actually encrypted when traveling from server to client? Who uses ports without SSL or TSL anymore?

And why does it matter if WhatsApp offers encrypted chat, if they can just update their client tomorrow and make it so that their servers snoop on everything (if that's not already the case)? A lot of the arguments of this guy seem to also be useful against himself. I won't go into more detail.

Re: The Ecosystem Is Moving [video]

#19
post #17

Why is he saying that email is not encrypted? Isn't it actually encrypted when traveling from server to client? Who uses ports without SSL or TSL anymore?

He is referencing end to end encryption. Google can see Your to/from/subject/metadata headers even if you bother to use gpg

Then that's a problem with us using a centralized system (Google) for emails, right? So email is not really decentralized.

Re: The Ecosystem Is Moving [video]

#20
post #3

In this video, Moxie Marlinspike--the developer of Signal, someone who has been consistently extremely negative on not just the idea of federated and decentralized systems but of open protocols and alternative clients for centralized systems (to the point where it shocks me he still does any development as open source, given how hard he pushes on the idea that people who fork his clients are actively doing something…

Does Signal have any advantages over Riot? Riot is a popular client, though not the only one. Competition is good. http://riot.im/

It's usable and you can put your mom on it
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