Germany Calls for European Firewall Against U.S. Sanctions • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany Calls for European Firewall Against U.S. Sanctions

#11

Post by nickbauman » Sat, Dec 28, 2019, 2:14 PM UTC

jplayer01 wrote: post #7

This is all about German politicians who've been bought out by Russian interests trying to protect their pet project(s). Speaking as a German, the fact that Germany would rather deal with and be reliant on a country like Russia is, frankly, insane and incredibly shameful. It's as if Ukraine didn't happen, nor Russian interference of elections across the Western world. For all the bad that the US does, at least they d…

This cannot be overstated. Russia is a Mafia State: Where the Russian Mafia == Russian Government. This is not a country you cozy up with. It will not end well.

Re: Germany Calls for European Firewall Against U.S. Sanctions

#12

Post by mschuster91 » Sat, Dec 28, 2019, 2:14 PM UTC

jplayer01 wrote: post #7

This is all about German politicians who've been bought out by Russian interests trying to protect their pet project(s). Speaking as a German, the fact that Germany would rather deal with and be reliant on a country like Russia is, frankly, insane and incredibly shameful. It's as if Ukraine didn't happen, nor Russian interference of elections across the Western world. For all the bad that the US does, at least they d…

> For all the bad that the US does, at least they don't invade and annex European countries, and try to undermine European politics.

Another German here. I find Putin and Russia absolutely revolting, but that last part is utter propaganda. The US has meddled in European politics for decades - just take Trump's stupid whining against BMW or Bush/Obama's complaints about NATO budget or us Germans not joining the fun in Iraq.

Re: Germany Calls for European Firewall Against U.S. Sanctions

#13

Post by mistermann » Sat, Dec 28, 2019, 2:15 PM UTC

jplayer01 wrote: post #7

This is all about German politicians who've been bought out by Russian interests trying to protect their pet project(s). Speaking as a German, the fact that Germany would rather deal with and be reliant on a country like Russia is, frankly, insane and incredibly shameful. It's as if Ukraine didn't happen, nor Russian interference of elections across the Western world. For all the bad that the US does, at least they d…

I'm well aware of the popular notion that many US politicians are controlled by Russia, but have never heard that a similar theory exists with respect to Germany. Is this really a thing now, or are you referring to a far more limited scenario?

Re: Germany Calls for European Firewall Against U.S. Sanctions

#14

Post by mattrp » Sat, Dec 28, 2019, 2:17 PM UTC

jplayer01 wrote: post #7

This is all about German politicians who've been bought out by Russian interests trying to protect their pet project(s). Speaking as a German, the fact that Germany would rather deal with and be reliant on a country like Russia is, frankly, insane and incredibly shameful. It's as if Ukraine didn't happen, nor Russian interference of elections across the Western world. For all the bad that the US does, at least they d…

Not just any politician but its former chancellor:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41447603

Edit: we’ve now reached a point where bbc articles merit downvotes. Absurd!

Re: Germany Calls for European Firewall Against U.S. Sanctions

#15

Post by pgeorgi » Sat, Dec 28, 2019, 2:19 PM UTC

jplayer01 wrote: post #7

This is all about German politicians who've been bought out by Russian interests trying to protect their pet project(s). Speaking as a German, the fact that Germany would rather deal with and be reliant on a country like Russia is, frankly, insane and incredibly shameful. It's as if Ukraine didn't happen, nor Russian interference of elections across the Western world. For all the bad that the US does, at least they d…

> Speaking as a German, the fact that Germany would rather deal with and be reliant on a country like Russia is, frankly, insane and incredibly shameful.

This is about Nordstream 2 I guess. Given how natural gas comes from Russia right now (via Ukraine and Poland), how does this increaase reliance on Russia?

It certainly decreases the reliance on Poland (not much of a concern in Germany) and Ukraine (lots of trouble every few years because Russia and Ukraine can't agree on delivery and transit terms).

Re: Germany Calls for European Firewall Against U.S. Sanctions

#16

Post by formercoder » Sat, Dec 28, 2019, 2:20 PM UTC

jplayer01 wrote: post #7

This is all about German politicians who've been bought out by Russian interests trying to protect their pet project(s). Speaking as a German, the fact that Germany would rather deal with and be reliant on a country like Russia is, frankly, insane and incredibly shameful. It's as if Ukraine didn't happen, nor Russian interference of elections across the Western world. For all the bad that the US does, at least they d…

Isn’t Germany already reliant on Russia for energy and this is simply about bypassing Ukraine transit in order to develop energy rationing leverage over the region? That has been my understanding thus far could be wrong.

Re: Germany Calls for European Firewall Against U.S. Sanctions

#17

Post by Tomte » Sat, Dec 28, 2019, 2:20 PM UTC

etaioinshrdlu wrote: post #5

The politics on this issue seem quite confusing. It might point to a lot of internal infighting within the politics of both Europe and the US.

While Nord Stream 2 is obviously beneficial to Germany (cheaper gas than from the US), there are two totally different interests working against the project:

* The Eastern European states (and especially Ukraine) want Germany to rely on pipelines going through their countries, so that Germany – as a big player – can be relied on to be working with those states when there is a conflict with Russia. (I find that interest well-founded and a debatable reason to refrain from building the pipeline)

* The United States want Germany to buy more (liquefied) gas from them. Quite a few gas terminals have been built in recent years, and America is keen on selling its oil to Europe, because with all that fracking they aim to be a primary supplier of gas in the world. (I do not consider that a valid reason, and if it were the only one, Nord Stream 2 would be a no-brainer, in my opinion).

It's all been complicated even further by Germany rushing this along without consulting (or at least not diplomatically working with) other EU member states, including France, which likes to put its foot down, since Germany is the big rival (and now that the UK is gone, the only real rival on the European stage).

Re: Germany Calls for European Firewall Against U.S. Sanctions

#18

Post by jplayer01 » Sat, Dec 28, 2019, 2:21 PM UTC

mschuster91 wrote: post #12

jplayer01 wrote: post #7

This is all about German politicians who've been bought out by Russian interests trying to protect their pet project(s). Speaking as a German, the fact that Germany would rather deal with and be reliant on a country like Russia is, frankly, insane and incredibly shameful. It's as if Ukraine didn't happen, nor Russian interference of elections across the Western world. For all the bad that the US does, at least they d…

> For all the bad that the US does, at least they don't invade and annex European countries, and try to undermine European politics. Another German here. I find Putin and Russia absolutely revolting, but that last part is utter propaganda. The US has meddled in European politics for decades - just take Trump's stupid whining against BMW or Bush/Obama's complaints about NATO budget or us Germans not joining the fun in…

I think we have a different definition for undermine. I can't say anything about how they've meddled in European politics. I'd hazard a guess that you really don't either, you just like being anti-American, which is the vastly popular opinion in Germany now, and partly the reason why nobody cares about Russia around here.

But the EU has benefited greatly from US hegemony across the globe, such that I can't in any way see how they might have undermined European politics in any way. Trump is irrelevant to the argument, and I don't see any direct or manipulative meddling in German politics in their attempt to get Germany (or Europe) to join the Iraq war. Hell, we didn't go to Iraq, no matter what the US said or did. And I just don't see anything that is in any way comparable to what Russia has been doing in recent years and continues to do now.

Hell, for most of the post-WW2 period, we were an important pillar in their "war" against Soviet Russia and we've been valued allies (yes, seriously) for much of that time, largely based on common cultural values. As such, they had a clear interest in a strong Europe, as opposed to Russia which benefits from the splintering of the EU and NATO. I know it's hard to remember any of that now with their monkey of a president and all the vile shit that they do, but we were close allies for a long time.

Re: Germany Calls for European Firewall Against U.S. Sanctions

#19

Post by jokoon » Sat, Dec 28, 2019, 2:23 PM UTC

Sometimes I wonder if the US and the EU are really friendly to each other.

Re: Germany Calls for European Firewall Against U.S. Sanctions

#20

Post by syshum » Sat, Dec 28, 2019, 2:24 PM UTC

mschuster91 wrote: post #12

jplayer01 wrote: post #7

This is all about German politicians who've been bought out by Russian interests trying to protect their pet project(s). Speaking as a German, the fact that Germany would rather deal with and be reliant on a country like Russia is, frankly, insane and incredibly shameful. It's as if Ukraine didn't happen, nor Russian interference of elections across the Western world. For all the bad that the US does, at least they d…

> For all the bad that the US does, at least they don't invade and annex European countries, and try to undermine European politics. Another German here. I find Putin and Russia absolutely revolting, but that last part is utter propaganda. The US has meddled in European politics for decades - just take Trump's stupid whining against BMW or Bush/Obama's complaints about NATO budget or us Germans not joining the fun in…

>>just take Trump's stupid whining against BMW

I can not find anything current but if you are talking about his statements on the MX plant, he does that to every Manufacturer that sell items in the US but does not manufacturer them here (at least in part).

Trump is a nationalist and loves protectionism, he believes that Products sold in the US should be made in the US. Thus BMW building a plant in Mexico to sell cars to the US goes against what he wants which is a US Factory employing US Workers. He has done the same to other Auto companies including both Ford and GM

>> Bush/Obama's complaints about NATO budget

Umm a large number of Presidents have complained about the other nations not paying their fair share into NATO as part of the agreements all nations signed, Germany does not spend enough of thier GDP on NATO, instead the US has to disproportionately fund world defense...

Then we get to be lectured by the EU about why we do not have Universal Healthcare which in part because we need to spend soo much on world defense because the other nations refuse to