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Shopify CEO says long hours aren't necessary for success

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Re: Shopify CEO says long hours aren't necessary for success

#11

Post by achow »

wbharding wrote: post #7

I think we're all rooting for the narrative that it's possible to get ahead working 9-5. But it's hard for me to ignore the survivorship bias at play here. Yes, if your company has a market cap in the billions, you probably don't need to be grinding on the weekends anymore. If you've built a company with amazing programmers and predictable revenue (e.g., dhh/Jason Fried) you probably don't need to grind weekends. But…

I've never worked through a night. The only times I worked more than 40 hours in a week was when I had the burning desire to do so.

...never...

Re: Shopify CEO says long hours aren't necessary for success

#12

Post by zorpner »

wbharding wrote: post #7

I think we're all rooting for the narrative that it's possible to get ahead working 9-5. But it's hard for me to ignore the survivorship bias at play here. Yes, if your company has a market cap in the billions, you probably don't need to be grinding on the weekends anymore. If you've built a company with amazing programmers and predictable revenue (e.g., dhh/Jason Fried) you probably don't need to grind weekends. But…

> But it's hard for me to ignore the survivorship bias at play here.

Surely it works the other way as well -- for all the stories of people who worked all night to achieve success, there are others about people who either did so and didn't win, or worse yet burnt themselves out or hurt their lives in other ways.

Re: Shopify CEO says long hours aren't necessary for success

#13

Post by pmoriarty »

rogerkirkness wrote: post #10
pmoriarty wrote: post #3

"I've never worked through a night. The only times I worked more than 40 hours in a week was when I had the burning desire to do so. I need 8ish hours of sleep a night. Same with everybody else, whether we admit it or not" So he didn't. What about his employees? Not to imply that long hours are necessary. I think they're abhorrent. But they're also endemic. Some bosses do get away with working shorter hours while the…

I worked there. It's clearly a more focused environment than other SV companies I've seen since. Tobi works hard and does the right thing. I think the challenge was actually the first rung of middle managers not being smart enough to understand the long term focus. That's part that's hard to scale. But the leaders walked the talk and empowered others to do so.

"Tobi works hard and does the right thing."

What does it mean to "work hard" at a white collar job when you don't work long hours?

Honestly curious.

Re: Shopify CEO says long hours aren't necessary for success

#15

Post by simonw »

thetrumanshow wrote: post #8

A few thoughts to add to the discussion, loosely related: 1) If I know exactly where to spend my time for the best rate of return, its likely that I'll have to spend relatively few hours achieving success. 2) For most people, the success they can achieve through just having a plain old job can be had for a mere 40 hours. Anything they want above what 40 hours can grant them should probably be done elsewhere (second j…

Study after study has shown that working 80 hours dramatically reduces your productivity during those hours.

I loved what Tobi said in this tweet: https://twitter.com/simonw/status/1210622908143415297

"For creative work, you can't cheat. My believe is that there are 5 creative hours in everyone's day. All I ask of people at Shopify is that 4 of those are channeled into the company."

5 creative hours in a day absolutely matches my experience based on my own career. I can get a HUGE amount done in those 5 hours if I apply them sensibly.

Re: Shopify CEO says long hours aren't necessary for success

#16

Post by mathgladiator »

pmoriarty wrote: post #13
rogerkirkness wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked there. It's clearly a more focused environment than other SV companies I've seen since. Tobi works hard and does the right thing. I think the challenge was actually the first rung of middle managers not being smart enough to understand the long term focus. That's part that's hard to scale. But the leaders walked the talk and empowered others to do so.

"Tobi works hard and does the right thing." What does it mean to "work hard" at a white collar job when you don't work long hours? Honestly curious.

Working hard is about maintaining focus and prioritizing effectively.

There are many ways to lose focus, and shaving the yak can be a massive time suck.

Re: Shopify CEO says long hours aren't necessary for success

#18

Post by arcticbull »

pmoriarty wrote: post #3

"I've never worked through a night. The only times I worked more than 40 hours in a week was when I had the burning desire to do so. I need 8ish hours of sleep a night. Same with everybody else, whether we admit it or not" So he didn't. What about his employees? Not to imply that long hours are necessary. I think they're abhorrent. But they're also endemic. Some bosses do get away with working shorter hours while the…

> Not to imply that long hours are necessary. I think they're abhorrent. But they're also endemic.

That's definitely true of the Bay Area, but Shopify is an Ottawa, Canada company. Having gone to college there, I don't get the feeling that Tobi is doing anything out of the ordinary for an Ottawa company. That may not be the case in Kitchener/Waterloo or Vancouver -- and it's definitely not true of the Bay Area -- but it's much less endemic out there.

It's at once nice to see but also frustrating because I feel like Ottawa tends to lack that drive, motivation and commitment broadly speaking to develop more Shopify-type companies. There's IBM, Mitel, Adobe, Blackberry, Corel and a bunch of companies selling into government out there from a tech perspective. But hey, hopefully Shopify leads the way here and we see more of them.

Shopify is something of a point of pride for Ottawa and I do wish them all the best!

Re: Shopify CEO says long hours aren't necessary for success

#19

Post by k__ »

zorpner wrote: post #12
wbharding wrote: post #7

I think we're all rooting for the narrative that it's possible to get ahead working 9-5. But it's hard for me to ignore the survivorship bias at play here. Yes, if your company has a market cap in the billions, you probably don't need to be grinding on the weekends anymore. If you've built a company with amazing programmers and predictable revenue (e.g., dhh/Jason Fried) you probably don't need to grind weekends. But…

> But it's hard for me to ignore the survivorship bias at play here. Surely it works the other way as well -- for all the stories of people who worked all night to achieve success, there are others about people who either did so and didn't win, or worse yet burnt themselves out or hurt their lives in other ways.

This.

Everyone thinks their experience reflects an universal truth.

That's the one big error, in my opinion.

What I learned in my life is, find your individual way. Don't play other peoples games, play your own game.

Pick what you need from the system and throw the rest away.

I'm bad at standing up before 12 and even worse at working 40h a week.

I'm don't like doing the same stuff for years.

I'm bad at networking for work, most people I meet there are just boring or upsetting to me.

All these things set me up for failure, still I'm doing better than most of my friends who are better at these things by a mile.

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