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Cracking the Male Code of Office Behavior

nytimes.com

11–20 of 23 posts

Re: Cracking the Male Code of Office Behavior

#11
"I was shocked to discover that most men view negative emotion as a signal that logic has ceased."

Yes, that's pretty spot on, for me at least. (I'm male)

At times I know I can be overly blunt and appear insensitive - in the vast majority of cases I'm not trying to make a value judgement, just calling it how I see it. Thus, getting an emotional response back is somewhat shocking - to exaggerate for effect:

    A: "Two plus Two is Four"
    B: "OMG really!?!  You're a horrible person for thinking that!"
    A: "Um, I'm confused... what's wrong with you?"
I wonder where this puts me on the aspergers spectrum...

Re: Cracking the Male Code of Office Behavior

#12
post #10

> I enter into conversations with unsuspecting men sitting next to me on airplanes, on the subway and in coffee shops and give them a chance to share their innermost thoughts anonymously. This sounds like a wildlife researcher entering protected habitats to observe a rare species under natural conditions. It also betrays the underlying assumption that men and women are two completely different species that live in co…

> The science is clear, for example, that although the female brain isn’t designed to compartmentalize personal feelings the same way a man’s brain does, a woman can — if she chooses — force a calm demeanor when she is starting to feel defensive.

That's a lie. This statement has nothing to do with science.

Can you point in the direction of something that proves or disproves that statement? I've witnessed a lot of anecdotal evidence that women don't do as well at compartmentalization as men. I didn't make much of it until I also read a book that points it out ("Viva La Diferencia" by Pilar Sordo) as one of the differences between typical male and typical female behavior.

All in all, it seems that the typical behavioral patterns are different enough between males and females, so I'm interested in evidence both for and against it. Your categorical statement makes it look like you can produce some of that evidence.

Re: Cracking the Male Code of Office Behavior

#13
post #10

> I enter into conversations with unsuspecting men sitting next to me on airplanes, on the subway and in coffee shops and give them a chance to share their innermost thoughts anonymously. This sounds like a wildlife researcher entering protected habitats to observe a rare species under natural conditions. It also betrays the underlying assumption that men and women are two completely different species that live in co…

> The science is clear, for example, that although the female brain isn’t designed to compartmentalize personal feelings the same way a man’s brain does, a woman can — if she chooses — force a calm demeanor when she is starting to feel defensive. That's a lie. This statement has nothing to do with science. Can you point in the direction of something that proves or disproves that statement? I've witnessed a lot of ane…

> I've witnessed a lot of anecdotal evidence that women don't do as well at compartmentalization as men. I didn't make much of it until I also read a book that points it out ("Viva La Diferencia" by Pilar Sordo) as one of the differences between typical male and typical female behavior.

Like I said, that's a _very_ popular opinion and it sells a lot of books. It's also something of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

> The science is clear, for example, that although the female brain isn’t designed to compartmentalize personal feelings the same way a man’s brain does

You ask me to prove my assertion that this is not based science, and of course I can mostly point to the fact that the supposed science the article is talking about was itself not cited anywhere. So I have to prove a negative, but the article gets a pass with disguising a blanket statement as science just because it resonates better with popular world views?

There is no actual biological or medical evidence supporting the article's claims. Pop psychology studies of this matter are hampered by the simple fact that they're unable to distinguish cultural from biological mechanisms. Evolutionary psychology is also considered a pseudoscience because it's based on starting with equating popular assumptions to self-evident truths and then going out to find evidence to support these arbitrary claims, while ignoring everything else.

Re: Cracking the Male Code of Office Behavior

#14
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The science is clear, for example, that although the female brain isn’t designed to compartmentalize personal feelings the same way a man’s brain does, a woman can — if she chooses — force a calm demeanor when she is starting to feel defensive. That's a lie. This statement has nothing to do with science. Can you point in the direction of something that proves or disproves that statement? I've witnessed a lot of ane…

> I've witnessed a lot of anecdotal evidence that women don't do as well at compartmentalization as men. I didn't make much of it until I also read a book that points it out ("Viva La Diferencia" by Pilar Sordo) as one of the differences between typical male and typical female behavior. Like I said, that's a _very_ popular opinion and it sells a lot of books. It's also something of a self-fulfilling prophecy. > The s…

> I've witnessed a lot of anecdotal evidence that women don't do as well at compartmentalization as men. I didn't make much of it until I also read a book that points it out ("Viva La Diferencia" by Pilar Sordo) as one of the differences between typical male and typical female behavior.

Like I said, that's a _very_ popular opinion and it sells a lot of books.

I agree that it's popular. What I'm trying to find out is how much of it is just an opinion and how much is proven. There certainly seems to be a behavioral pattern out there.

It's also somewhat of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

What do you mean by "somewhat of a self-fulfilling prophecy"?

You ask me to prove my assertion that this is not based science, and of course I can mostly point to the fact that the supposed science the article is talking about was itself not cited anywhere. So I have to prove a negative, but the article gets a pass with disguising a blanket statement as science just because it resonates better with your world view?

No, not really. It seems I wasn't clear enough with my question. I wasn't asking you to prove your "assertion that this is not based science". When you said "That is a lie", I saw what seemed to be categorical denial of the claim that men and women have different capacity for compartmentalization and I was intrigued enough by your vehemence to ask you to point me to what made you so sure.

The article didn't "get a pass" because it never even entered into my side of discussion at all.

Re: Cracking the Male Code of Office Behavior

#15

Interesting article, but I don't understand this: "The male brain has the enviable ability to essentially switch off emotions when desired--in part because it’s hard for a man to think clearly in the face of emotion." "For a man"? Wouldn't it be hard for, you know, anyone, man or woman, to think clearly if they're over-emotional at the moment?

Many women believe that their ability to "think" while emotional is what makes them the stronger sex. Of course, if you talk to them later when they are no longer emotional, they will admit they weren't thinking clearly.

The same is true for men of course. While most of us refrain from emotions at work, any man who's had a fight with his wife knows he's been just as irrational when the emotions run high.

The important take away: emotions aren't valuable at work.

Re: Cracking the Male Code of Office Behavior

#16
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've witnessed a lot of anecdotal evidence that women don't do as well at compartmentalization as men. I didn't make much of it until I also read a book that points it out ("Viva La Diferencia" by Pilar Sordo) as one of the differences between typical male and typical female behavior. Like I said, that's a _very_ popular opinion and it sells a lot of books. It's also something of a self-fulfilling prophecy. > The s…

> I've witnessed a lot of anecdotal evidence that women don't do as well at compartmentalization as men. I didn't make much of it until I also read a book that points it out ("Viva La Diferencia" by Pilar Sordo) as one of the differences between typical male and typical female behavior. Like I said, that's a _very_ popular opinion and it sells a lot of books. I agree that it's popular. What I'm trying to find out is…

> What I'm trying to find out is how much of it is just an opinion and how much is proven.

There is no significant difference in functional brain structure or organization to suggest these differences are hard-wired. In fact, most of the brain is still considered a black box and basic research is still occupied with finding out how the basic building blocks interact. Sadly, that leaves people who's job it is to examine learned behavior with a lot of room to assert biological predisposition in an attempt to make their (often amateurish) statistical findings more substantial. They get away with it, too, mainly because their opinions are so popular, and their popularity growths with the number of studies appearing in mainstream press in support of the majority world view.

> There certainly seems to be a behavioral pattern out there.

There are many different behavioral patterns out there and what you get to experience depends largely on the country, cultures and subcultures you are embedded in. I'm not denying that behaviors exist, I'm just speaking out against abusing science to falsely attribute underlying biological causes to behavior that is very likely more learned than innate.

> What do you mean by "somewhat of a self-fulfilling prophecy"?

I mean the traditional view of gender behavior (which has recently once again become the modern view) is not only imprinting people with a specific bias but also causes humans to behave accordingly. It thus becomes a self-sustaining system, because the more people believe it to be true, the more they behave accordingly, and the more they gather evidence in support of the underlying values. It's a cycle, and confirmation bias does the rest of the work.

> When you said "That is a lie", I saw what seemed to be categorical denial of the claim that men and women have different capacity for compartmentalization and I was intrigued enough by your vehemence to ask you to point me to what made you so sure.

Ah, OK, I misunderstood you there. The statement made in the article is not supported by hard science, as far as I know. This is what prompted me to claim the implication that gender behavior is rooted in well-documented scientific observations and models is indeed a lie. Of course, there are many behavioral studies carefully designed show ...pretty much anything you could ever want. But that's not the equivalent of hard science. That's statistics with an agenda.

Interestingly enough, there was a popular meme in mainstream media about scientific results "wearing off", i.e. becoming less true over time. The results in question used to document this alleged property of the universe were mostly - wait for it - pop psychology studies with agendas behind them. It's telling that these people would rather assume intelligent malice exerted by the universe than admitting their studies were bogus to begin with. These studies are mostly human behavior studies that basically equate popular opinions with universal truths, and then those researchers are shocked, shocked! to find out their results don't hold up over time.

Re: Cracking the Male Code of Office Behavior

#17
post #11

"I was shocked to discover that most men view negative emotion as a signal that logic has ceased." Yes, that's pretty spot on, for me at least. (I'm male) At times I know I can be overly blunt and appear insensitive - in the vast majority of cases I'm not trying to make a value judgement, just calling it how I see it. Thus, getting an emotional response back is somewhat shocking - to exaggerate for effect: A: "Two pl…

I notice emotional attachment at work from both genders.

Those that create subjective work, like designers and musicians, often latch onto their solutions with an emotional vigor. It’s as if they view their work as some part of themselves.

Re: Cracking the Male Code of Office Behavior

#18
"The science is clear, for example, that although the female brain isn’t designed to compartmentalize personal feelings the same way a man’s brain does, a woman can--if she chooses--force a calm demeanor when she is starting to feel defensive."

Is that clearly science?

Re: Cracking the Male Code of Office Behavior

#19
I like that there is supposed to be a contrast between these:

> The expectation that people shut down personal feelings at work has become one of men’s subconscious, “unwritten rules.” When men see a worker taking criticism personally, seeming to push too hard for his or her ideas, or having a personality conflict, they automatically view that worker as less business-savvy and less experienced, or as someone who operates on emotion, not logic. (I was shocked to discover that most men view negative emotion as a signal that logic has ceased.)

and this:

> So when we raise our hand in a meeting and ask directly, “Bob, why did you choose that pricing?” we are just asking for information. Bob, on the other hand, may be angrily thinking, “I can’t believe she is challenging my judgment in front of my team.”

How come when women take criticism personally and respond emotionally and men don't get it (as in example 1) it's a problem, but when women are blunt about their questions and men respond emotionally (as in example 2) it's not the exact same problem? Looks like a double standard that plays on the "women are emotional, men are not" myth to me.

Re: Cracking the Male Code of Office Behavior

#20
post #17
post #11

"I was shocked to discover that most men view negative emotion as a signal that logic has ceased." Yes, that's pretty spot on, for me at least. (I'm male) At times I know I can be overly blunt and appear insensitive - in the vast majority of cases I'm not trying to make a value judgement, just calling it how I see it. Thus, getting an emotional response back is somewhat shocking - to exaggerate for effect: A: "Two pl…

I notice emotional attachment at work from both genders. Those that create subjective work, like designers and musicians, often latch onto their solutions with an emotional vigor. It’s as if they view their work as some part of themselves.

It’s as if they view their work as some part of themselves.

If you're a good artistic / creative person with that sort of mind, it pretty much is.

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