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Caffeine enhances activity of common antidepressants in forced swim test in mice

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

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Re: Caffeine enhances activity of common antidepressants in forced swim test in mice

#11

Post by natalyarostova »

seibelj wrote: post #4

My perfect day is 8 hours of caffeine, an hour at the gym, 4 hours of alcohol, SSRI for a nightcap. YMMV

While I never used alcohol, some many number of years ago my drug cocktail used to not be so dissimilar from yours.

All I can say is that, for me personally, and many others, being able to eventually move off that chemical dependency has resulted in richer and healthier days. This isn't a judgement on what works for you, or a suggestion that you do some radical change. Just something to chew on in the back of your mind if the day ever comes where you get sick of it all.

Re: Caffeine enhances activity of common antidepressants in forced swim test in mice

#13

Post by dan-robertson »

The methodology here is typical for testing antidepressants with animals but many people find it somewhat horrifying:

First the mice are made to be depressed by exposing them to constant sounds of birds screeching and other predators. Next some are given the intervention. The level of depression is then measured by putting the mice in a container of deep water from which there is no escape, and timing how long until the mouse gives up swimming. The mice are not left to drown but are fished out and killed in a presumably more-humane way (chronically depressed mice are not otherwise useful).

A second ethical issue with studies with mice is that occasionally the unfortunate phd student tasked with dispatching the mice will not have been taught any way to do so and will have to try to come up with something on the spot. This can be quite traumatic for both parties.

Re: Caffeine enhances activity of common antidepressants in forced swim test in mice

#14

Post by heavyset_go »

copperx wrote: post #5
temporaryvector wrote: post #3

I was under the impression that this is a pretty known effect. I used to take anti-depressants along with CNS stimulants and this definitely was something that my psychiatrist and my other doctors mentioned to me and considered when choosing an appropriate dosage.

Can you expound on that? Can you paraphrase the doctor's suggestions?

DAT inhibitors, DA releasers and agonists are effective antidepressants in that they reduce the symptoms of depression. Drugs like Zoloft are DAT inhibitors as well as acting as SSRIs, Wellbutrin is a NET and DAT inhibitor, and MAOIs inhibit the breakdown of serotonin, DA and norepinephrine. Newer antipsychotic medications that are indicated for use as adjunct therapy for depression also have binding action at certain DA receptor sites.

The problem with dopaminergics is that they tend to be addictive, and build tolerance. Both Zoloft and Wellbutrin only inhibit a certain percentage of DAT in areas of the brain related to reward, so they aren't exactly abusable, while something like methylphenidate (which is a potent NET and DAT inhibitor) is.

Re: Caffeine enhances activity of common antidepressants in forced swim test in mice

#16

Post by andbberger »

dan-robertson wrote: post #13

The methodology here is typical for testing antidepressants with animals but many people find it somewhat horrifying: First the mice are made to be depressed by exposing them to constant sounds of birds screeching and other predators. Next some are given the intervention. The level of depression is then measured by putting the mice in a container of deep water from which there is no escape, and timing how long until…

> A second ethical issue with studies with mice is that often the unfortunate phd student tasked with dispatching the mice will not have been taught any way to do so and will have to try to come up with something on the spot. This can be quite traumatic for both parties.

uhhhhhh are you sure about that?? This strikes me as a flagrant violation of policy. Animal studies are heavily regulated.

In my experience, (and mind you I've only ever worked adjacent to animal labs, not directly in them) there is always a canister of CO2 and a euthanization chamber on standby in experiments where there is a risk of injuring the mice.

Re: Caffeine enhances activity of common antidepressants in forced swim test in mice

#17

Post by dan-robertson »

andbberger wrote: post #16
dan-robertson wrote: post #13

The methodology here is typical for testing antidepressants with animals but many people find it somewhat horrifying: First the mice are made to be depressed by exposing them to constant sounds of birds screeching and other predators. Next some are given the intervention. The level of depression is then measured by putting the mice in a container of deep water from which there is no escape, and timing how long until…

> A second ethical issue with studies with mice is that often the unfortunate phd student tasked with dispatching the mice will not have been taught any way to do so and will have to try to come up with something on the spot. This can be quite traumatic for both parties. uhhhhhh are you sure about that?? This strikes me as a flagrant violation of policy. Animal studies are heavily regulated. In my experience, (and mi…

Probably should substitute “often” for “occasionally”. I’ve edited the comment.

I suppose there are other factors too, eg the student not thinking to say they don’t know how to kill a mouse and their advisor not thinking to ask.

Re: Caffeine enhances activity of common antidepressants in forced swim test in mice

#18

Post by samatman »

andbberger wrote: post #16
dan-robertson wrote: post #13

The methodology here is typical for testing antidepressants with animals but many people find it somewhat horrifying: First the mice are made to be depressed by exposing them to constant sounds of birds screeching and other predators. Next some are given the intervention. The level of depression is then measured by putting the mice in a container of deep water from which there is no escape, and timing how long until…

> A second ethical issue with studies with mice is that often the unfortunate phd student tasked with dispatching the mice will not have been taught any way to do so and will have to try to come up with something on the spot. This can be quite traumatic for both parties. uhhhhhh are you sure about that?? This strikes me as a flagrant violation of policy. Animal studies are heavily regulated. In my experience, (and mi…

While this is standard, it shouldn't be.

Mammals sense CO2 buildup, not oxygen depletion. By smothering with CO2, the mice spend their last moments desperate to breathe and unable to.

If they were to use nitrogen instead, the mice, having no way to know they've been deprived of oxygen, would just pass out and die.

Re: Caffeine enhances activity of common antidepressants in forced swim test in mice

#19

Post by temporaryvector »

copperx wrote: post #5
temporaryvector wrote: post #3

I was under the impression that this is a pretty known effect. I used to take anti-depressants along with CNS stimulants and this definitely was something that my psychiatrist and my other doctors mentioned to me and considered when choosing an appropriate dosage.

Can you expound on that? Can you paraphrase the doctor's suggestions?

There isn't much to paraphrase, really. When my doctor was prescribing fluoxetine he offhandedly mentioned that he would start me off with a lower dose than he normally would for a person of my size and issues because I was already taking amphetamines, which meant that I wouldn't need as high a dose. The offhanded way he mentioned it gave me the impression that it was common knowledge and later another doctor also mentioned the same thing to me, but this one was not a psychiatrist but a cardiologist, farther cementing my suspicions.

When I later asked my psychiatrist about this he said that since SSRIs and amphetamines are though to complement each other (even if the science on the matter isn't really decided) the recommendation they get is to adjust the dose of SSRIs down. I'm sure the actual reason is more complex than that, maybe involving fears of serotonin syndrome, but my takeaway from it was that the effect is well known.

No idea about coffee in particular since I wasn't allowed to have any caffeine during that time.

Re: Caffeine enhances activity of common antidepressants in forced swim test in mice

#20

Post by [deleted] »

dan-robertson wrote: post #13

The methodology here is typical for testing antidepressants with animals but many people find it somewhat horrifying: First the mice are made to be depressed by exposing them to constant sounds of birds screeching and other predators. Next some are given the intervention. The level of depression is then measured by putting the mice in a container of deep water from which there is no escape, and timing how long until…

[deleted]
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