As anothet professor all I really feel I can add to the authors argument is that anecdotes are not data and my anecdotes say differently about student interactions...
Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools
11–20 of 96 posts
Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools
#12I really enjoyed this article. I haven't read Anthony Jack's book on the issue yet (I'll add it to my list!), but the framing of privileged poor and double disadvantaged was a new way for me to think about education inequality.
The transition into an "elite" college, even as a middle class Asian-American male, was incredibly difficult on me mentally. My background in public school system in North Carolina (not in the Triangle Area or Charlotte) was a stark contrast from the elite high school institutions that many of my peers had experienced.
The example of "office hours" in the article resonates particularly strongly with me - I had never treated my instructors as "allies" and struggled completing psets and utilizing my professors and TAs as resources. I didn't realize until reading this article now that I had been treating them like adversaries.
Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools
#13Probably we should just add class and/or socioeconomic status to the Title VII list and mandate that colleges add it in the form of affirmative action. We can talk around the problem & treat symptoms all we want but fundamentally the Ivy League's purpose is to take the children of the rich and give them the meritocratic legitimation that our society currently requires of its elites. Allowing a small amount of poor ki…
As a partial defense of the Ivies, a substantial part of their admins are trying to do that, and there are signs of progress: admission at most of them is now "need-blind" and they have fantastic financial aid. The much bigger issue is that a student with rich parents would have gone to a better school, and would have had more "opportunities to shine" as a teen, and would not have to had to worry about food/shelter/h…
The most fair solution would probably look a lot like what Harry Potter got at Hogwarts.
A student dorm (housing), medical care, and proper meals; all provided by the educational institution (which as a whole was in competition with other institutions).
In the HP universe that happened to be paid for by the family estate; in our own reality properly caring for and ensuring that everyone is raised to be an outstanding citizen is both a form of civic infrastructure investment and an insurance policy that helps avoid creating criminals and other negatives for society.
Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools
#14Some of these issues extend beyond such narrow groups. Office hours as a concept are easily one of the weirdest and most confusing things ever because they simultaneously encompass at least two entirely different disharmonious concepts. Are they (a) time set aside so those who need significant help can get it without disrupting class, or (b) time aside so students can chat and schmooze with their professors?
The reality is that they're portrayed as (a) while really being significantly (b).
And this can be very confusing, unless you come from a self-centered elite worldview where (a) and (b) aren't highly differentiated.
"Why does everyone both tell me to go to office hours like it's it club, but then make it sound like it's for people who don't understand the assignment? If I go and understand the assignment won't it just be awkward?"
You definitely don't have to come from a poor or disadvantaged background to find the whole thing difficult to figure out.
The whole concept of "discussing your grade" is another overlap. People from a certain strata do this constantly and it's a perfect example of something bluring (a) and (b).
Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools
#15Probably we should just add class and/or socioeconomic status to the Title VII list and mandate that colleges add it in the form of affirmative action. We can talk around the problem & treat symptoms all we want but fundamentally the Ivy League's purpose is to take the children of the rich and give them the meritocratic legitimation that our society currently requires of its elites. Allowing a small amount of poor ki…
As a partial defense of the Ivies, a substantial part of their admins are trying to do that, and there are signs of progress: admission at most of them is now "need-blind" and they have fantastic financial aid. The much bigger issue is that a student with rich parents would have gone to a better school, and would have had more "opportunities to shine" as a teen, and would not have to had to worry about food/shelter/h…
> As a partial defense of the Ivies, a substantial part of their admins are trying to do that, and there are signs of progress: admission at most of them is now "need-blind" and they have fantastic financial aid.
And it's feel-good. By the time you're at the point of applying, it's too late.
The damage was done with bad elementary schooling regarding the fundamentals.
The damage was perpetrated during middle school. At-home school projects was just a selector for how much the parents made.
The damage was revealed with "You're a bad student", or "You should consider vocational programs".
Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools
#16Earlier quoted context omitted.
As a partial defense of the Ivies, a substantial part of their admins are trying to do that, and there are signs of progress: admission at most of them is now "need-blind" and they have fantastic financial aid. The much bigger issue is that a student with rich parents would have gone to a better school, and would have had more "opportunities to shine" as a teen, and would not have to had to worry about food/shelter/h…
The most fair solution would probably look a lot like what Harry Potter got at Hogwarts. A student dorm (housing), medical care, and proper meals; all provided by the educational institution (which as a whole was in competition with other institutions). In the HP universe that happened to be paid for by the family estate; in our own reality properly caring for and ensuring that everyone is raised to be an outstanding…
But (as I attempted to convey above) the Ivies already provide housing/food/health care for free for students that qualify for the need (if the family income is under a reasonable threshold). The problem is that if you are poor, your statistically inferior K12 education puts you at a disadvantage when applying to college. We need a version of your Harry Potter solution to be for the actual Harry Potter age group (K12 education).
Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools
#17Earlier quoted context omitted.
As a partial defense of the Ivies, a substantial part of their admins are trying to do that, and there are signs of progress: admission at most of them is now "need-blind" and they have fantastic financial aid. The much bigger issue is that a student with rich parents would have gone to a better school, and would have had more "opportunities to shine" as a teen, and would not have to had to worry about food/shelter/h…
The most fair solution would probably look a lot like what Harry Potter got at Hogwarts. A student dorm (housing), medical care, and proper meals; all provided by the educational institution (which as a whole was in competition with other institutions). In the HP universe that happened to be paid for by the family estate; in our own reality properly caring for and ensuring that everyone is raised to be an outstanding…
The only reason Harry got into Hogwarts was because he was born a wizard (likely inherited from his parents). Based on the way he was treated by his peers, I’d argue that he was one of the most privileged students at the school, apart from Malfoy.
The only real oppression Harry experienced was the abuse he suffered at the hands of his uncle and aunt. Plenty of rich kids suffer this sort of abuse from relatives. That doesn’t mean they didn’t still have an advantage in college admissions.
Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools
#18One of the things about the Oxbridge system is that tutorials are compulsory. They're traditionally the primary channel for teaching: you might go to a lecture to hear some interesting things, but the real work is the reading and writing you do in preparation for the tutorial, so you'd better go to them.
The standard tutorial is one fellow and two students, so (unless your tutor is hopeless and your tutorial partner is a narcissist), you will get the attention you need. Even if you have a tutorial where there are four of you (where the tutor is a rare specialist who has a lot of students to get through!), if you get stuck listening, at least you're hearing the same information that the more vocal students are!
Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools
#19Earlier quoted context omitted.
As a partial defense of the Ivies, a substantial part of their admins are trying to do that, and there are signs of progress: admission at most of them is now "need-blind" and they have fantastic financial aid. The much bigger issue is that a student with rich parents would have gone to a better school, and would have had more "opportunities to shine" as a teen, and would not have to had to worry about food/shelter/h…
> As a partial defense of the Ivies, a substantial part of their admins are trying to do that, and there are signs of progress: admission at most of them is now "need-blind" and they have fantastic financial aid. And it's feel-good. By the time you're at the point of applying, it's too late. The damage was done with bad elementary schooling regarding the fundamentals. The damage was perpetrated during middle school.…
Isn't this exactly what I wrote above, just in more flowery language?
Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools
#20Probably we should just add class and/or socioeconomic status to the Title VII list and mandate that colleges add it in the form of affirmative action. We can talk around the problem & treat symptoms all we want but fundamentally the Ivy League's purpose is to take the children of the rich and give them the meritocratic legitimation that our society currently requires of its elites. Allowing a small amount of poor ki…
That would be extreme affirmative action, and would undermine myriad efficiencies built into the higher educational system. Schools like Michigan would have some students who are totally illiterate with SAT scores hovering around 800, and some students who've already done upper-division math courses in high school. Intelligent people could no longer be grouped together to help drive each other, and schools like Harva…
Private schools could be outlawed. Rich parents who want their children to go to better schools can donate to their city's public education budget.
Most of the social problems stemming from capitalism center around the fact that having money gives you and yours disproportionate opportunities for improving your socioeconomic position even more, ad infinitum. Cut out that circular effect wherever possible, and you approach a level playing field.