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Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

miamiherald.com

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Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#11

Post by jacobush »

sp332 wrote: post #3
mikece wrote: post #2

I tend to be very skeptical of claims of conspiracy and conspiracy theories in general but I've yet to hear a reasonable theory to explain how Epstein could have killed himself in a cell and unit where suicide is made a practical impossibility. A friend in law enforcement related a story about someone on suicide watch who managed to kill himself by eating/shoving massive amount of toilet paper down his throat and the…

Epstein was taken off suicide watch though. Edit: the rate of suicide is still pretty darn low, and lots of other stuff worth looking in to. Just pointing out that he wasn't on suicide watch at the time.

It would seem if someone were to murder him, it would be prudent to take him off suicide watch first.

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#12

Post by ddingus »

sp332 wrote: post #3
mikece wrote: post #2

I tend to be very skeptical of claims of conspiracy and conspiracy theories in general but I've yet to hear a reasonable theory to explain how Epstein could have killed himself in a cell and unit where suicide is made a practical impossibility. A friend in law enforcement related a story about someone on suicide watch who managed to kill himself by eating/shoving massive amount of toilet paper down his throat and the…

Epstein was taken off suicide watch though. Edit: the rate of suicide is still pretty darn low, and lots of other stuff worth looking in to. Just pointing out that he wasn't on suicide watch at the time.

Should he have been?

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#13

Post by partiallypro »

mikece wrote: post #2

I tend to be very skeptical of claims of conspiracy and conspiracy theories in general but I've yet to hear a reasonable theory to explain how Epstein could have killed himself in a cell and unit where suicide is made a practical impossibility. A friend in law enforcement related a story about someone on suicide watch who managed to kill himself by eating/shoving massive amount of toilet paper down his throat and the…

He was taken off of suicide watch, so he had all the materials he needed to kill himself. Also...every person I've read with working knowledge of that prison has stressed the gross negligence and incompetence there.

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#14

Post by mc32 »

mikece wrote: post #2

I tend to be very skeptical of claims of conspiracy and conspiracy theories in general but I've yet to hear a reasonable theory to explain how Epstein could have killed himself in a cell and unit where suicide is made a practical impossibility. A friend in law enforcement related a story about someone on suicide watch who managed to kill himself by eating/shoving massive amount of toilet paper down his throat and the…

Yeah I’m also skeptical of improbable theories... but this one looks, I mean looks, too convenient. Cameras go offline, taken off suicide watch... even if it wasn’t someone physically doing him in, they can drive him to do it by psychological means.

This was one of the highest profile cases in the last decade. That they didn’t have him watched 24x7 is incredible gross negligence or more.

I mean you have low level criminals get more attention when they signal possible self harm than this guy.

PS toilet paper: can’t they get prison safe bidets?

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#15

Post by AnimalMuppet »

bsamuels wrote: post #5

I'm fascinated by the idea that someone could have killed and successfully covered up a murder this high profile. How do you handle the guards? How do you keep the other inmates quiet? Can you get away with bribing a single guard or is a larger operation needed? If you bribe people, how do you get the money to them? How do you keep them quiet when the inevitable investigation happens? I don't think it's impossible, b…

So it's in the "quite difficult, but not impossible" category. The question then is, who would want him dead that badly, and have the resources to carry it out? Given the circles he ran in and the dirt he might have had on people, a surprising number of people might have had both the means and the motive.

Mind you, I'm not saying that it was murder. I'm just saying that the degree of difficulty isn't as big a barrier as it would seem.

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#16

Post by arbitrage »

mikece wrote: post #2

I tend to be very skeptical of claims of conspiracy and conspiracy theories in general but I've yet to hear a reasonable theory to explain how Epstein could have killed himself in a cell and unit where suicide is made a practical impossibility. A friend in law enforcement related a story about someone on suicide watch who managed to kill himself by eating/shoving massive amount of toilet paper down his throat and the…

The criminal justice / mental health field being what it is, I do not find it surprising in the least that a reviled kiddie-fucker would be allowed, by several levels of people involved, 15 minutes alone, along with plausibly accidental access to a means to kill themselves.

The breaking of the hyoid bone is, in fact, not uncommon in hangings. Nor is the breaking of the cartilage. Nor is hemorrhaging in the face or eyes. Nor is blatant disregard for the fate of a paedophile, who in nobody's right mind could conceivably be innocent.

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#17

Post by AndrewBissell »

partiallypro wrote: post #13
mikece wrote: post #2

I tend to be very skeptical of claims of conspiracy and conspiracy theories in general but I've yet to hear a reasonable theory to explain how Epstein could have killed himself in a cell and unit where suicide is made a practical impossibility. A friend in law enforcement related a story about someone on suicide watch who managed to kill himself by eating/shoving massive amount of toilet paper down his throat and the…

He was taken off of suicide watch, so he had all the materials he needed to kill himself. Also...every person I've read with working knowledge of that prison has stressed the gross negligence and incompetence there.

This was the same prison that somehow held El Chapo, a serial jailbreaker, in custody throughout his trial. They can be competent when actually motivated to do so.

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#18

Post by kgwxd »

bsamuels wrote: post #5

I'm fascinated by the idea that someone could have killed and successfully covered up a murder this high profile. How do you handle the guards? How do you keep the other inmates quiet? Can you get away with bribing a single guard or is a larger operation needed? If you bribe people, how do you get the money to them? How do you keep them quiet when the inevitable investigation happens? I don't think it's impossible, b…

I would think anyone privy to the situation would be handled the same way, by threat of death to them or loved ones. Maybe a little cash to ease the mental burden.

I'd like to think I could withstand such a threat like a fictional hero, but I have my doubts. I hope to never know for sure.

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#19

Post by 542458 »

mikece wrote: post #2

I tend to be very skeptical of claims of conspiracy and conspiracy theories in general but I've yet to hear a reasonable theory to explain how Epstein could have killed himself in a cell and unit where suicide is made a practical impossibility. A friend in law enforcement related a story about someone on suicide watch who managed to kill himself by eating/shoving massive amount of toilet paper down his throat and the…

> killed himself in a cell and unit where suicide is made a practical impossibility

Ken White (famous-ish lawyer and notable internet personality) puts it this way: "But your assessment of plausibility is based on your assumptions about how the system works. Those assumptions are, mostly, wrong — naive Dick-Wolf-level law-enforcement-are-competent-good-guys stuff".

Prisons, particularly american prisons, are full of incompetence and casual disregard to human life and dignity. The prison where Epstein died was understaffed, and the guards tasked with watching him had next-to-no training. Epstein had also been taken off suicide watch nine days earlier.

Ken White put together 32 other cases where people died, or almost died in jail because the administration was too incompetent or too indifferent to do anything: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/08/thirty-two...

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#20

Post by 542458 »

This is not the head pathologist who performed the autopsy or anything. This is an pathologist hired by Epstein's family who is notable for saying dramatic things in an apparent attempt to get news time:

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/michael-brown-shooting/who...

Furthermore, there's nothing new here - all of this was known months ago. The damage in question - Baden's smoking gun - is not uncommon in suicides either.

(Edit: this comment formerly claimed that Baden wasn't at the autopsy. This appears to be incorrect - he was there, but not on the medical team.)

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