Seizing the Means of Knowledge Production • Hacker News Board

Re: Seizing the Means of Knowledge Production

#11

Post by dang » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 9:02 PM UTC

rubbingalcohol wrote: post #5

mikelyons wrote: post #4

The rise of social justice is the evolution of our society from red/orange through high orange to a green society on the Spiral Dynamics model of psychological / spiritual evolution. We're seeing the limits and the ugliness of unhealthy/low orange in the environment, politics, culture, et al. The transition to green will be painful and violently resisted by orange/red portions of our society, but it is necessary for…

Did you recently get laid off from the TSA? The only purpose your "threat level" categorization of social issues serves is to marginalize viewpoints you disagree with under the brush stroke of "progress at any cost." There are conservative values that are deeply necessary for a free society to function and that afford people the privilege* of criticizing their freedoms in the first place. (*well actually a right but…

Hey, please don't cross into personal attack in HN comments. It lowers discussion quality, evokes worse from others, and discredits your argument.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Seizing the Means of Knowledge Production

#12

Post by andrekandre » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 9:37 PM UTC

ralusek wrote: post #8

It's always interesting to see Hayek's words, followed by a timestamp. Similar, although less recent at nearly 25 years ago, is this Peter Thiel video discussing the illusion of multiculturalism in 1996 https://youtu.be/qTPOBEdc7OI?t=722 . The degree to which radically far left ideology is taught in university is one of the most prevalent contributors to the current political schism. America has been primarily libera…

> Most notably, one's racial and gender identity are brought to the foreground as bar none the primary contributors to the outcomes an individual will encounter.

do you have any hard evidence if this?

> people are skeptical of markets and a market value associated with their actions

assuming that is true, why is that?

Re: Seizing the Means of Knowledge Production

#13

Post by slowswift » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 9:39 PM UTC

ralusek wrote: post #8

It's always interesting to see Hayek's words, followed by a timestamp. Similar, although less recent at nearly 25 years ago, is this Peter Thiel video discussing the illusion of multiculturalism in 1996 https://youtu.be/qTPOBEdc7OI?t=722 . The degree to which radically far left ideology is taught in university is one of the most prevalent contributors to the current political schism. America has been primarily libera…

> The degree to which people are skeptical of markets and a market value associated with their actions is so immense

Similarly, the degree to which market advocates, themselves, exhibit skepticism about the market mechanism vis-a-vis their own intellectual products is so immense, in fact, that the idea that ideas achieving widespread adoption within the marketplace of ideas do, indeed, have vastly greater value than those with inferior adoption is simply met with comparably-inarticulate derision.

Re: Seizing the Means of Knowledge Production

#14

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 10:53 PM UTC

mikelyons wrote: post #4

The rise of social justice is the evolution of our society from red/orange through high orange to a green society on the Spiral Dynamics model of psychological / spiritual evolution. We're seeing the limits and the ugliness of unhealthy/low orange in the environment, politics, culture, et al. The transition to green will be painful and violently resisted by orange/red portions of our society, but it is necessary for…

[deleted]

Re: Seizing the Means of Knowledge Production

#15

Post by mikelyons » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 11:20 PM UTC

rubbingalcohol wrote: post #5

mikelyons wrote: post #4

The rise of social justice is the evolution of our society from red/orange through high orange to a green society on the Spiral Dynamics model of psychological / spiritual evolution. We're seeing the limits and the ugliness of unhealthy/low orange in the environment, politics, culture, et al. The transition to green will be painful and violently resisted by orange/red portions of our society, but it is necessary for…

Did you recently get laid off from the TSA? The only purpose your "threat level" categorization of social issues serves is to marginalize viewpoints you disagree with under the brush stroke of "progress at any cost." There are conservative values that are deeply necessary for a free society to function and that afford people the privilege* of criticizing their freedoms in the first place. (*well actually a right but…

I'm not saying that conservatives are unhealthy, I'm saying there are unhealthy levels of conservatism just as there are unhealthy levels and limits to liberalism.

The reason that it can be said that unity rather than adversary is higher in development is that conservatism tends to be resistance to the fundamental impermanence of reality. All things must change. Reality and consciousness are evolving. The world is becoming globalized and we are moving towards unity.

And it's not about who's bad or good, better or worse, it's about what level of development are you at, how high is your awareness, how well do you understand reality.

Demonizing a second grader for not reading at a high school level doesn't make any sense, just as telling a retiree he is lazy for quitting work doesn't make any sense.

I'm trying to help people see the thing they are defending when they react violently. What is it in you that gets so angry when you read what I wrote? Worth examining.

Edit: Also worth reading about Spiral Dynamics and seeing how it applies to Life and to politics.

Re: Seizing the Means of Knowledge Production

#16

Post by makomk » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 11:22 PM UTC

Nasrudith wrote: post #10

That is an awful lot of words for "people who don't agree with me are part of a vast conspiracy". Put aside the possibility that the reason elites disagree is because they know something that the author doesn't. Even if one disagrees with a prevailing philosophy or even if it is objectively wrong but the idea catches on doesn't mean there is a conspiracy. That a rant from the 70s sounds like one today says more about…

"It was largely a grassroots campaign. It was very deliberate, but also decentralized — with actors from different backgrounds and interests, concerned with different causes, working different institutional levers — learning from, and building upon, the work of one-another over time."

That... seems like about as far from a vast conspiracy as you can get whilst still describing a group of people with a common goal and set of beliefs.

Re: Seizing the Means of Knowledge Production

#17

Post by wrnr » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 11:30 PM UTC

slowswift wrote: post #13

ralusek wrote: post #8

It's always interesting to see Hayek's words, followed by a timestamp. Similar, although less recent at nearly 25 years ago, is this Peter Thiel video discussing the illusion of multiculturalism in 1996 https://youtu.be/qTPOBEdc7OI?t=722 . The degree to which radically far left ideology is taught in university is one of the most prevalent contributors to the current political schism. America has been primarily libera…

> The degree to which people are skeptical of markets and a market value associated with their actions is so immense Similarly, the degree to which market advocates, themselves, exhibit skepticism about the market mechanism vis-a-vis their own intellectual products is so immense, in fact, that the idea that ideas achieving widespread adoption within the marketplace of ideas do, indeed, have vastly greater value than…

Haha, but in all seriousness I'd like for the social sciences to conduct a study on how widespread the adoption their ideas is.

Re: Seizing the Means of Knowledge Production

#18

Post by Turing_Machine » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 11:41 PM UTC

Nasrudith wrote: post #10

That is an awful lot of words for "people who don't agree with me are part of a vast conspiracy". Put aside the possibility that the reason elites disagree is because they know something that the author doesn't. Even if one disagrees with a prevailing philosophy or even if it is objectively wrong but the idea catches on doesn't mean there is a conspiracy. That a rant from the 70s sounds like one today says more about…

The piece makes a scholarly argument and is written in scholarly language. It is neither a "conspiracy theory" nor a "rant".

You are using loaded rhetoric in an attempt to dismiss the piece without actually engaging with the ideas set forth in it.

Re: Seizing the Means of Knowledge Production

#19

Post by roenxi » Sun, Oct 13, 2019, 12:33 AM UTC

slowswift wrote: post #13

ralusek wrote: post #8

It's always interesting to see Hayek's words, followed by a timestamp. Similar, although less recent at nearly 25 years ago, is this Peter Thiel video discussing the illusion of multiculturalism in 1996 https://youtu.be/qTPOBEdc7OI?t=722 . The degree to which radically far left ideology is taught in university is one of the most prevalent contributors to the current political schism. America has been primarily libera…

> The degree to which people are skeptical of markets and a market value associated with their actions is so immense Similarly, the degree to which market advocates, themselves, exhibit skepticism about the market mechanism vis-a-vis their own intellectual products is so immense, in fact, that the idea that ideas achieving widespread adoption within the marketplace of ideas do, indeed, have vastly greater value than…

Ideas aren't a great place to push free market ideals; especially because so many ideas are basically anti-freedom and anti-market. How often does anyone come up with "let people sort it out themselves, bearing the costs and consequences" as a new idea? When it is suggested it is rare to see someone championing it with enthusiasm and to wide acclaim. Compare that to the "Lets order people to [activity]" style ideas that are common and suggested in many forms.

Using market forces to measure the value of an idea is not clever. Ideas that are to be put into practice should be assessed primarily by whether they are grounded in evidence or not, and secondarily by whether people are willing to cope with the consequences of the idea going wrong.

An idea being popular or gaining popularity does not make it a valuable idea (or indeed a good idea). That stands in stark contrast to economic forces which measure resource creation and destruction with a cruel accuracy.

Re: Seizing the Means of Knowledge Production

#20

Post by esoterica » Sun, Oct 13, 2019, 1:05 AM UTC

ralusek wrote: post #8

It's always interesting to see Hayek's words, followed by a timestamp. Similar, although less recent at nearly 25 years ago, is this Peter Thiel video discussing the illusion of multiculturalism in 1996 https://youtu.be/qTPOBEdc7OI?t=722 . The degree to which radically far left ideology is taught in university is one of the most prevalent contributors to the current political schism. America has been primarily libera…

Remind me, for which part of history was America liberal? Was it when it was legal to own slaves? Or when women couldn’t vote? Or when it was illegal to purchase and consume alcohol?