Notes of a native tiger son: it's a weird time to be Asian-American • Hacker News Board

Re: Notes of a native tiger son: it's a weird time to be Asian-American

#11

Post by sethg » Wed, Jan 19, 2011, 6:24 PM UTC

knowtheory wrote: post #2

Oliver Wang is totally right on this. But i'm slightly more ambivalent than he is on the subject. What Chua wrote did hit a resonant note in American cultural stereotypes, and that's bad, BUT, i don't think it invalidates Chua's points particularly either. Chua's approach is a particular style of child rearing, but her own piece was so filled with nebulous caveats, that i found it hard to believe that anything she pa…

I’m putting a lot more trust in responses to Chua, from other Asian-Americans talking about their own experiences, than in Chua herself. Once the WSJ op-ed became That Thing On The Internet Everyone Was Talking About, she started walking back, saying that the WSJ quoted fragments of her book out of context. Then she told a newspaper columnist “I’m an unreliable narrator”, saying that the book as a whole was an exaggeration. (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2011/01/13/...) So... what is really going on with Chua and her kids, not to mention her husband? About all I can safely infer is that the woman has, as they say, Issues.

Re: Notes of a native tiger son: it's a weird time to be Asian-American

#12

Post by stcredzero » Wed, Jan 19, 2011, 6:34 PM UTC

As a result, throughout my childhood—and most of my adulthood—we mostly contended with a slim parade of different, sometimes contradictory, caricatures: lotus blossoms and dragon ladies, math nerds and martial artists, refugees and gang-bangers. Ad nauseum.

The amount of presumption that I have to deal with from strangers on a regular basis is still disturbing. Such interactions only comprise a small fraction of the total, but a modern urban setting is sufficiently populated to generate a regular supply. No, I look nothing like Jackie Chan. Please don't treat me like someone wearing a costume at Disney World. I'm not a cartoon and I'm not your instant Asian friend. Yes, I was born here. English is my first language. I know next to nothing about martial arts. I'm not bad but still not that good at math. No, I don't think I'm better than you, I don't need to be shown up, you're not making the world a more beautiful and better place by doing that. (Still, all of those are better than the instant Asian=target of abuse idiots or the weird psycho-sexual vibes from certain kinds of middle-aged white guys.)

I observe the little dance that people go through when they get to know each other. I notice the little verbal and non-verbal signals being passed and being noticed. I'd really like to notice more of those transactions and stop wondering about their relative lack coincident with these big globs of presumption coming out of nowhere.

Re: Notes of a native tiger son: it's a weird time to be Asian-American

#13

Post by Splines » Wed, Jan 19, 2011, 6:37 PM UTC

lookACamel wrote: post #10

noname123 wrote: post #7

I've thought a lot about this subject. I have come to conclusion that asian parents hating comes from internalized self-hatred of being yellow and yet at the same, being unable to express one's Asian values in a Western society. Almost everything against the Asian parents are against how their values are different from typical "American" parents: strict vs. lenient, off-putting vs. dotting. "I have to sit at home doi…

>whereas with my American friends, we interact like we are in prison, joking and bustin' each other balls and never showing vulnerabilities. I catch your drift but that's not a very good analogy. I seriously doubt prison is like hanging out with friends.

High school would probably be a better analogy. I'm fortunate that my HS experience was a relatively easy-going 4 years, but others in my grade were not so lucky.

Re: Notes of a native tiger son: it's a weird time to be Asian-American

#14

Post by stcredzero » Wed, Jan 19, 2011, 6:40 PM UTC

noname123 wrote: post #7

I've thought a lot about this subject. I have come to conclusion that asian parents hating comes from internalized self-hatred of being yellow and yet at the same, being unable to express one's Asian values in a Western society. Almost everything against the Asian parents are against how their values are different from typical "American" parents: strict vs. lenient, off-putting vs. dotting. "I have to sit at home doi…

Almost everything against the Asian parents are against how their values are different from typical "American" parents

Really? Everything I find negative has to to with prioritizing signaling over substance. The same goes for "typical" American parents. (Being a "doting" parent at the expense of honest feedback is a great example of my annoyance with the latter.)

Re: Notes of a native tiger son: it's a weird time to be Asian-American

#15

Post by knowtheory » Wed, Jan 19, 2011, 6:50 PM UTC

sethg wrote: post #11

knowtheory wrote: post #2

Oliver Wang is totally right on this. But i'm slightly more ambivalent than he is on the subject. What Chua wrote did hit a resonant note in American cultural stereotypes, and that's bad, BUT, i don't think it invalidates Chua's points particularly either. Chua's approach is a particular style of child rearing, but her own piece was so filled with nebulous caveats, that i found it hard to believe that anything she pa…

I’m putting a lot more trust in responses to Chua, from other Asian-Americans talking about their own experiences, than in Chua herself. Once the WSJ op-ed became That Thing On The Internet Everyone Was Talking About, she started walking back, saying that the WSJ quoted fragments of her book out of context. Then she told a newspaper columnist “I’m an unreliable narrator”, saying that the book as a whole was an exagge…

Perhaps i didn't make myself clear enough.

I don't think Chua's initial excerpt actually said anything meaningful. It was like some sort of bizarre Rorschach test, that said very little, and upset a lot of people.

My point is, having read it the first time, i too went through the "yeah this kind of describes my childhood" thing, and then looked back at the claims, together with her caveats and noticed that there was precisely nothing one could take away from her article, except that it was an anecdote about her family, and how other people think she's a horrible person.

There was no generalizable information in her piece, and thus it was ultimately sort of an inconsequential, and self-satisfying fluff piece. What does amaze me, is the amount of time and effort dedicated to discussing her and what she's said. Given that i don't think the substance of her comments was worthy of such discussion, all i can figure is that she is controversial because of who she is and the style of the comments.

Re: Notes of a native tiger son: it's a weird time to be Asian-American

#16

Post by frossie » Wed, Jan 19, 2011, 7:02 PM UTC

sethg wrote: post #11

knowtheory wrote: post #2

Oliver Wang is totally right on this. But i'm slightly more ambivalent than he is on the subject. What Chua wrote did hit a resonant note in American cultural stereotypes, and that's bad, BUT, i don't think it invalidates Chua's points particularly either. Chua's approach is a particular style of child rearing, but her own piece was so filled with nebulous caveats, that i found it hard to believe that anything she pa…

I’m putting a lot more trust in responses to Chua, from other Asian-Americans talking about their own experiences, than in Chua herself. Once the WSJ op-ed became That Thing On The Internet Everyone Was Talking About, she started walking back, saying that the WSJ quoted fragments of her book out of context. Then she told a newspaper columnist “I’m an unreliable narrator”, saying that the book as a whole was an exagge…

she started walking back, saying that the WSJ quoted fragments of her book out of context

I haven't read the book, but I have seen evidence that the WSJ extracts were highly selective. In fact in the Guardian piece below, in which her children are also quoted, it says that she completely changed her approach when she realised the effect that it had. Her daughter is quoted as saying:

"The other day, I messed up a math test. I texted my mom that I got an A- and she replied, 'Who cares! Mummy loves u!'"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2011/jan/15/amy-chua-...

[Edit for those who don't want to read the linked article: The Guardian piece casts the book as a confessionary "these are the things I did because I thought they were right and boy, it just made my kids miserable so I stopped" rather than the WSJ-implied tone of "this is the way I raised my kids and you wussy Westerners should do it like this or be squashed"]

Re: Notes of a native tiger son: it's a weird time to be Asian-American

#17

Post by slashclee » Wed, Jan 19, 2011, 7:10 PM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #12

As a result, throughout my childhood—and most of my adulthood—we mostly contended with a slim parade of different, sometimes contradictory, caricatures: lotus blossoms and dragon ladies, math nerds and martial artists, refugees and gang-bangers. Ad nauseum. The amount of presumption that I have to deal with from strangers on a regular basis is still disturbing. Such interactions only comprise a small fraction of the…

And, no, I am NOT related to Bruce Lee.

Re: Notes of a native tiger son: it's a weird time to be Asian-American

#18

Post by sudont » Wed, Jan 19, 2011, 7:15 PM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #12

As a result, throughout my childhood—and most of my adulthood—we mostly contended with a slim parade of different, sometimes contradictory, caricatures: lotus blossoms and dragon ladies, math nerds and martial artists, refugees and gang-bangers. Ad nauseum. The amount of presumption that I have to deal with from strangers on a regular basis is still disturbing. Such interactions only comprise a small fraction of the…

"The amount of presumption that I have to deal with from strangers on a regular basis "

Seriously? Where the hell do you live, Georgia? But, I suppose being white I don't see it.

And that psycho-sexual thing is called a "rice queen." Uh, fyi, I guess.

Re: Notes of a native tiger son: it's a weird time to be Asian-American

#19

Post by sethg » Wed, Jan 19, 2011, 7:17 PM UTC

frossie wrote: post #16

sethg wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m putting a lot more trust in responses to Chua, from other Asian-Americans talking about their own experiences, than in Chua herself. Once the WSJ op-ed became That Thing On The Internet Everyone Was Talking About, she started walking back, saying that the WSJ quoted fragments of her book out of context. Then she told a newspaper columnist “I’m an unreliable narrator”, saying that the book as a whole was an exagge…

she started walking back, saying that the WSJ quoted fragments of her book out of context I haven't read the book, but I have seen evidence that the WSJ extracts were highly selective. In fact in the Guardian piece below, in which her children are also quoted, it says that she completely changed her approach when she realised the effect that it had. Her daughter is quoted as saying: "The other day, I messed up a math…

On the one hand, I have a low opinion of the WSJ editorial pages, so I want to believe that the editors crafted the op-ed to portray Chua in a way that reflects their own political and racial biases, rather than the image that Chua wanted to present of herself. (I know personally a family that signed up for one of those “reality TV” shows, and I cringe at how they were portrayed.) On the other hand, framing her this way appears to be helping her sales figures. Back on the first hand, would she have wanted to project this image of herself to a national audience just to spike her book sales?

Re: Notes of a native tiger son: it's a weird time to be Asian-American

#20

Post by sethg » Wed, Jan 19, 2011, 7:38 PM UTC

knowtheory wrote: post #15

sethg wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m putting a lot more trust in responses to Chua, from other Asian-Americans talking about their own experiences, than in Chua herself. Once the WSJ op-ed became That Thing On The Internet Everyone Was Talking About, she started walking back, saying that the WSJ quoted fragments of her book out of context. Then she told a newspaper columnist “I’m an unreliable narrator”, saying that the book as a whole was an exagge…

Perhaps i didn't make myself clear enough. I don't think Chua's initial excerpt actually said anything meaningful. It was like some sort of bizarre Rorschach test, that said very little, and upset a lot of people. My point is, having read it the first time, i too went through the "yeah this kind of describes my childhood" thing, and then looked back at the claims, together with her caveats and noticed that there was…

I think the original op-ed spoke on both a logical and emotional level. On the logical level, as you say, the caveats pretty much cancelled out any substantive arguments. On the emotional level, there was an overwhelming message of you Western slackers, if you do not browbeat your children into being #1 the way we Chinese do, your children will die homeless and penniless and ten pounds overweight.

And the emotional message strikes some pretty tender nerves for those millions who either are status-anxious about how their children will end up (think of all those upper-class New York parents angling to get their toddlers into The Right Preschool), or who was raised by someone with that kind of anxiety.