Brain food: a nutrient vegans lack • Hacker News Board

Re: Brain food: a nutrient vegans lack

#11

Post by jvagner » Sat, Aug 31, 2019, 6:38 PM UTC

esotericn wrote: post #6

Does anyone else find this obsessive attitude towards vegan/vegetarian diets and their supposed lack of nutrition to be thinking about the wrong problem? We evolved over a long period of time to basically eat whatever we could hunt and find. Depending on location that might have included meat or meat might have been very hard to come across indeed. It's unclear to me that we'd have such a strong dependency on specifi…

For every “vegan diet problems” article out there, there should be a “fiber deficiency” article written for people eating a SAD.

Re: Brain food: a nutrient vegans lack

#12

Post by zenlot » Sat, Aug 31, 2019, 6:50 PM UTC

I am always surprised when I see that vegans/plant-based dieters may be lacking one or more nutrients in their well balanced diet. Most of the time you should only be concerned about getting all vital nutrients if you're following non plant-based diet.

Re: Brain food: a nutrient vegans lack

#13

Post by jtms » Sat, Aug 31, 2019, 6:55 PM UTC

zenlot wrote: post #12

I am always surprised when I see that vegans/plant-based dieters may be lacking one or more nutrients in their well balanced diet. Most of the time you should only be concerned about getting all vital nutrients if you're following non plant-based diet.

This is a flawed line of reasoning given that the overwhelming majority of meat eaters also eat a significant percentage of their calories from plants. It is referred to as a balanced diet for a reason.

Re: Brain food: a nutrient vegans lack

#14

Post by zenlot » Sat, Aug 31, 2019, 7:03 PM UTC

jtms wrote: post #13

zenlot wrote: post #12

I am always surprised when I see that vegans/plant-based dieters may be lacking one or more nutrients in their well balanced diet. Most of the time you should only be concerned about getting all vital nutrients if you're following non plant-based diet.

This is a flawed line of reasoning given that the overwhelming majority of meat eaters also eat a significant percentage of their calories from plants. It is referred to as a balanced diet for a reason.

Majority of meat eaters are into fast and processed food. Whoever considers that a balanced diet has a benefit out of it. Enough to look at obesity statistics across the world. Majority considered that prescribing opioids was for the health benefits too.

Re: Brain food: a nutrient vegans lack

#15

Post by scottLobster » Sat, Aug 31, 2019, 7:25 PM UTC

esotericn wrote: post #6

Does anyone else find this obsessive attitude towards vegan/vegetarian diets and their supposed lack of nutrition to be thinking about the wrong problem? We evolved over a long period of time to basically eat whatever we could hunt and find. Depending on location that might have included meat or meat might have been very hard to come across indeed. It's unclear to me that we'd have such a strong dependency on specifi…

I think it's just a backlash towards the more militant vegans who make all the noise. Veganism predicates itself on moral grounds (no animal products period, because hurting animals/climate change/etc), not nutritional ones like vegetarianism, and as with any moral cause some people decide to get all Deus Vult! about it.

So as a response the opposition points out that veganism "morally" excludes certain nutrients as a way to call it an unhealthy/stupid lifestyle.

And there's technically a legitimate point to it IMO, maybe being pure vegan is nutritionally sub-optimal compared to some other options. Maybe kids shouldn't be vegan for ideal health. At the very least you have to seriously worry about various nutrients that you don't have to worry about with a less restrictive diet. But IMO that's like saying people into restoring/driving antique cars are driving sub-optimal vehicles. Yeah it's technically true, but that's their lifestyle/hobby so who cares?

And "malnourished" depends on your definition. It's no coincidence that we started growing taller and having more babies with the advent of agriculture. It's like putting a plant under a grow-lamp. Is the plant fueled by natural if imperfect sunlight "malnourished" relative to the plant under the grow-lamp?

Re: Brain food: a nutrient vegans lack

#16

Post by coldtea » Sat, Aug 31, 2019, 7:26 PM UTC

esotericn wrote: post #6

Does anyone else find this obsessive attitude towards vegan/vegetarian diets and their supposed lack of nutrition to be thinking about the wrong problem? We evolved over a long period of time to basically eat whatever we could hunt and find. Depending on location that might have included meat or meat might have been very hard to come across indeed. It's unclear to me that we'd have such a strong dependency on specifi…

>We evolved over a long period of time to basically eat whatever we could hunt and find.

And our best energy packed food was still meat in that period of time...

Re: Brain food: a nutrient vegans lack

#17

Post by robotron » Sat, Aug 31, 2019, 7:35 PM UTC

jtms wrote: post #13

zenlot wrote: post #12

I am always surprised when I see that vegans/plant-based dieters may be lacking one or more nutrients in their well balanced diet. Most of the time you should only be concerned about getting all vital nutrients if you're following non plant-based diet.

This is a flawed line of reasoning given that the overwhelming majority of meat eaters also eat a significant percentage of their calories from plants. It is referred to as a balanced diet for a reason.

Anecdotally, most people who eat meat-based diets really downplay the role of vegetables in their diet. Eating meat is more masculine and the only food worthy of focusing on. Vegetables are relegated to dressing up meats or acting as half-forgotten side dishes.

Disclaimer: I am not vegetarian/vegan but eat one or two meatless meals per day.

Re: Brain food: a nutrient vegans lack

#18

Post by ficklepickle » Sat, Aug 31, 2019, 7:56 PM UTC

daneel_w wrote: post #5

Choline is very common in vitamin B12 supplements, which most vegans - assuming they aren't the poorly educated lifestyle type of vegan - know they need to supplement unless they want to make algae and seaweed staples of their kitchen.

Floradix FTW. That stuff saved my life.

Re: Brain food: a nutrient vegans lack

#19

Post by loceng » Sat, Aug 31, 2019, 8:00 PM UTC

esotericn wrote: post #6

Does anyone else find this obsessive attitude towards vegan/vegetarian diets and their supposed lack of nutrition to be thinking about the wrong problem? We evolved over a long period of time to basically eat whatever we could hunt and find. Depending on location that might have included meat or meat might have been very hard to come across indeed. It's unclear to me that we'd have such a strong dependency on specifi…

Similar attitudes exist, or perhaps we could call them myths, exist for meat - that you don't get all of the nutrients you need if you only eat meat.

In part I'm sure it's perpetuated, for every diet, by whatever industry or industrial complex wants to create "news" and attention for themselves - which can include creating misinformation against the opposite.

Superfoods that are fads is an easy example, also, you don't ever hear about the healthiest fat weight loss diet - which is water fasting - because a company generally can't make money off of telling you to not eat.

I agree with you that through evolution there would have been different sources of food for different groups, with more or less meat/animal sources available, and so there will be different lineages of evolution that thrive with certain foods and where those same foods may be harmful to others.

There hasn't been adequate research done for diet, to factor in all variables that are important - including starting state of health of someone's GI tract. To do a proper, holistic and fully inclusive research, will be a big and expensive undertaking. And observational studies isn't adequate research IMHO, as they miss important nuances and help perpetuate whatever ideology someone is pushing/cheering for.

Re: Brain food: a nutrient vegans lack

#20

Post by esotericn » Sat, Aug 31, 2019, 9:20 PM UTC

scottLobster wrote: post #15

esotericn wrote: post #6

Does anyone else find this obsessive attitude towards vegan/vegetarian diets and their supposed lack of nutrition to be thinking about the wrong problem? We evolved over a long period of time to basically eat whatever we could hunt and find. Depending on location that might have included meat or meat might have been very hard to come across indeed. It's unclear to me that we'd have such a strong dependency on specifi…

I think it's just a backlash towards the more militant vegans who make all the noise. Veganism predicates itself on moral grounds (no animal products period, because hurting animals/climate change/etc), not nutritional ones like vegetarianism, and as with any moral cause some people decide to get all Deus Vult! about it. So as a response the opposition points out that veganism "morally" excludes certain nutrients as…

I think it's really difficult to quantify sub-optimal in this context because it requires the identification of like, actual serious benefits or bad effects, as you say re defining 'malnourishment'.

If you could show that, for example, on average a meat eater had a higher IQ than a vegan (or vice versa), or is stronger or something, and you somehow exclude the confounding effects (e.g. vegans in the West are generally wealthier and more educated than the average) that'd be a solid example.

A lot of the time it seems to come down to things like short-term digestive effects or specific deficiencies.

The car example is interesting. I wrote a reply about this earlier actually. I recently went from a 1998 banger to a 2019 shiny fancy thing. They pretty much do exactly the same thing. The 1998 car was theoretically less reliable but in practice it never skipped a beat.

I mean, it's less shiny, makes more noise, pollutes more. But 'sub-optimal' - I mean it really depends on your metric. In terms of going places it was the same.