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Dignity

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Re: Dignity

#11

Post by skrebbel »

djrobstep wrote: post #9

One day in the future I hope we can take classism as seriously as other forms of bigotry like racism and sexism. Explicitly racial segregation is over, but capitalist class society segregates people by socio-economic class implicitly (it's explicit in only certain places like airplane cabins). Of course, class is a great way to continue to run a racist society: Just cram the underclass with most of the minorities! Th…

I have this pet theory that much racism is actually wrongly interpreted classism. In many countries, big ethnic minorities (eg African Americans and Latinos in the US, or the Turkish & Maroccan Dutch where I live) are much poorer, on average, than the national average.

I suppose that many people might think that poorer people are more likely to break into their homes, rob them on the street, sell drugs etc than richer people. So they prefer to avoid poor people if they can. I mean, that's classism in a nutshell right?

If you're black in the US or Turkish in NL, it's like having an "I'm poor" sign on your forehead. Especially if you don't dress overly businesslike.

Re: Dignity

#12

Post by nugga »

djrobstep wrote: post #9

One day in the future I hope we can take classism as seriously as other forms of bigotry like racism and sexism. Explicitly racial segregation is over, but capitalist class society segregates people by socio-economic class implicitly (it's explicit in only certain places like airplane cabins). Of course, class is a great way to continue to run a racist society: Just cram the underclass with most of the minorities! Th…

Baselessly prejudiced discrimination is obviously bad, but whites in the west had a head start of hundreds of years of amassing wealth and power. That's how the game mostly works.

We're born, we do the work and we die. We're not entitled to anything.

>The only solution is to replace the class system with something that provides unconditional dignity for all.

Basic income, let's go!?

Re: Dignity

#13

Post by paganel »

ssivark wrote: post #4

One of the most poignant and evocative things I've read of late. I don't want to spoil the experience if you plan to read, so just two excerpts. > What I learned from the book is that the differences between the back and front row are more than money, marginality, jobs, and education. That is, the back row kids chose lives and educations that weren’t going to get them fancy jobs and high salaries, and they did it onl…

> but I wonder how (where from) others here get such broader perspective in life

Not sure if that is what you were asking for exactly but for me personally reading the books of Jacques Ellul [1] was very eye-opening in terms of getting me out of the technology bubble. Maybe it's nor for everyone, and I've been reminded on this website that Ted Kaczynski (aka Unabomber) was also a fan of Ellul so probably in the eyes of that commenter Ellul's writings are invalidated by this sole fact, but for me personally his ideas managed to get me out of the positivistic view.

Ivan Illich's [2] booklet "Deschooling Society" has also had a very profound effect on me and on how I see most of today's world, which relies so heavily on education (Ellul favorably cites Illich more than once). Illich also makes very good points against most of today's development trends, like building highways, which granted has managed to become a mainstream-ish idea nowadays but back in the '70s (when the book was written) was total anatema.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Ellul

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Illich

Re: Dignity

#14

Post by cousin_it »

skrebbel wrote: post #11
djrobstep wrote: post #9

One day in the future I hope we can take classism as seriously as other forms of bigotry like racism and sexism. Explicitly racial segregation is over, but capitalist class society segregates people by socio-economic class implicitly (it's explicit in only certain places like airplane cabins). Of course, class is a great way to continue to run a racist society: Just cram the underclass with most of the minorities! Th…

I have this pet theory that much racism is actually wrongly interpreted classism. In many countries, big ethnic minorities (eg African Americans and Latinos in the US, or the Turkish & Maroccan Dutch where I live) are much poorer, on average, than the national average. I suppose that many people might think that poorer people are more likely to break into their homes, rob them on the street, sell drugs etc than riche…

That doesn't explain the racism against Jews, or Asians.

I think the explanation is more biological. You're hardwired to feel that people who look and talk like you are the easiest to ally with. Sometimes it even becomes a self-reinforcing loop - if blue people have a slight preference to ally with other blue people, then green people will find it easier to ally with greens than with blues, which will be noticed by the blues and so on.

Re: Dignity

#15

Post by choeger »

This is all about travel. In the terms of the author I have to consider myself a front-row person. But I can easily go back to the rural area I come from - and I do so regularly - and I really enjoy it every single time. If I could, I would probably live there.

The thing is: you cannot live where your roots are and be who you want to be at the same time. You have to travel. A guy from the Ukraine cannot be a Stanford professor and be close to his parents at the same time.

But traveling technology can make this simpler. It will probably never fully resolve this issue, but it can get better.

In all these talks about how traveling damages our climate and our cities we should never forget what purpose it can serve.

Re: Dignity

#16

Post by saiya-jin »

choeger wrote: post #15

This is all about travel. In the terms of the author I have to consider myself a front-row person. But I can easily go back to the rural area I come from - and I do so regularly - and I really enjoy it every single time. If I could, I would probably live there. The thing is: you cannot live where your roots are and be who you want to be at the same time. You have to travel. A guy from the Ukraine cannot be a Stanford…

> you cannot live where your roots are and be who you want to be at the same time

thank you for this, it describes so many of us these days

Re: Dignity

#18

Post by djrobstep »

nugga wrote: post #12
djrobstep wrote: post #9

One day in the future I hope we can take classism as seriously as other forms of bigotry like racism and sexism. Explicitly racial segregation is over, but capitalist class society segregates people by socio-economic class implicitly (it's explicit in only certain places like airplane cabins). Of course, class is a great way to continue to run a racist society: Just cram the underclass with most of the minorities! Th…

Baselessly prejudiced discrimination is obviously bad, but whites in the west had a head start of hundreds of years of amassing wealth and power. That's how the game mostly works. We're born, we do the work and we die. We're not entitled to anything. >The only solution is to replace the class system with something that provides unconditional dignity for all. Basic income, let's go!?

Your comment amounts to "whites rule, deal with it", aka blatant white supremacy.

It's a perfect example of the racism-through-classism that I'm talking about.

Re: Dignity

#19

Post by pjc50 »

Dignity is a really under-used word these days. And leaving it out is why so many of the discussions on class and money get nowhere - because it exists outside the monetizable sphere. Or rather, there are all sorts of ways to sell it but few to buy it back again.

Re: Dignity

#20

Post by huhtenberg »

coldtea wrote: post #8

In much the same topic, I recommend this one too: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008AUKKUC/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_1?...

This points at "Nickel & Dimes" by Barbara Ehrenreich

/your friendly amazon link deofuscator

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