The electric car as a talisman of false hope • Hacker News Board

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#11

Post by tiborsaas » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 9:49 AM UTC

mkj wrote: post #5

alexgmcm wrote: post #2

Honestly, I hope electric cars become commonplace just because of the reduction in noise pollution let alone PM and CO2 emissions. Furthermore, I'm not really sure what the author thinks we should do? How can we maintain modern civilisation without factories etc.? Reverting to some primitive state seems neither realistic nor desirable.

I think you'll be disappointed, tyre and air noise doesn't change much at speed with electric cars.

Maybe close to highways, but it's not my experience with electric cars. In cities they tend to travel slowly and thus minimal turbulence and tire noise.

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#12

Post by michaelt » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 9:53 AM UTC

alexgmcm wrote: post #2

Honestly, I hope electric cars become commonplace just because of the reduction in noise pollution let alone PM and CO2 emissions. Furthermore, I'm not really sure what the author thinks we should do? How can we maintain modern civilisation without factories etc.? Reverting to some primitive state seems neither realistic nor desirable.

Some of the ideas that are popular with HN readers include:

1. Denser cities, like the centre of Paris or London rather than Los Angeles.

2. Walking, busses, metro systems, and cycle infrastructure for journeys within the city; high speed rail between cities.

3. Carbon taxes that cover the cost of recapturing the carbon. So ships and factories and things can keep operating, they've just got to plant some trees or whatever.

4. Nuclear power, alongside wind; solar; and a worldwide power grid to average out differences in production.

5. Remote working.

Ideas less popular with the HN community, but that you'll hear elsewhere include:

6. An end to endless growth.

7. Vegetarianism for everyone.

8. Total bans on certain polluting activities, where taxes would unfairly impact the poor and not the rich.

I'm sure you're aware of the political problems with all of these.

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#13

Post by Denzel » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 9:54 AM UTC

His argument distills to: solve it all-at-once, or don’t solve it at all.

This is an uninteresting and uninspiring line of thinking that ignores the nature of socially dynamic systems which don’t exist in a world of instantaneous cause-and-effect.

His conclusion states that electric cars make a difference, but they don’t make a real difference: “I do think they can slightly reduce unsustainability” but “by switching from a regular car to electric I might think that I am making a real difference”.

I’m sorry that the author doesn’t consider a real reduction in emissions a real difference.

Look, it’s simple, climate change will require a concerted effort to change in multiple markets across multiple arenas. And the solutions are not mutually exclusive. People that buy electric cars to help the environment or become vegetarian, are probably more likely to make additional changes in their life, and persuade others to make changes as well, to reduce emissions.

Most people arrive at the decision to purchase an electric vehicle exactly because they are questioning their way of life. Electric vehicles are not a talisman of false hope, they’re a singular step in the right direction.

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#14

Post by stuaxo » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 9:54 AM UTC

pif wrote: post #6

> To have any chance of slowing down climate breakdown rather than accelerating it further, we need to change our entire way of life... I agree with him. And that's why I keep saying that global warming is here to stay. We had better to learn to cope with it rather than hoping it can be reversed!

We're going to have to reverse it at some point. If we keep accelerating it there won't be any learning to live with it.

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#15

Post by abhi152 » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 9:55 AM UTC

Ok, so the author suggests nothing.. He fails to describe the solution(if any). May be the solution is population control.

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#16

Post by stuaxo » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 9:55 AM UTC

PeterStuer wrote: post #7

"Electric cars give us a sense that we can have change without having to change at all. They are a talisman of false hope." On a tangent issue: it going to get even worse. The automotive industry predicts total annual miles driven to go up by 300% when autonomous driving comes through.

As an asthmatic I'm looking forward to a drastic reduction in the pollution in our cities.

We still need to move to car free cities at the same time though.

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#17

Post by imtringued » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 9:56 AM UTC

mkj wrote: post #5

alexgmcm wrote: post #2

Honestly, I hope electric cars become commonplace just because of the reduction in noise pollution let alone PM and CO2 emissions. Furthermore, I'm not really sure what the author thinks we should do? How can we maintain modern civilisation without factories etc.? Reverting to some primitive state seems neither realistic nor desirable.

I think you'll be disappointed, tyre and air noise doesn't change much at speed with electric cars.

Time spent producing noise in a given location decreases with speed. The worst thing in terms of noise is not a car passing by every 10 seconds. It's a bus idling for 2 minutes in front of you.

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#18

Post by seren » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 9:57 AM UTC

rebuilder wrote: post #3

Are there examples of societies radically changing their lifestyles in order to prevent a disaster?

Not answering directly, but the advantage of us humans is that our culture is pretty malleable. Something that was trendy a few decades ago might become horrifying by today's standard.

For example, I would say that colonization was still regarded by some as mostly positively until the 1950s or 1960s, and today would totally look out of place (even if countries keep annexing their neighbors).

So it is possible the change will come quickly, not necessarily only because of regulations, but also because of the social norms. See recent articles about "flying shame".

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#19

Post by flr03 » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 9:58 AM UTC

We can imagine that the energy mix in EU will lean towards more renewable energy, increasing the benefit of electric cars over conventional cars. If indeed not decreasing yet, the number of cars sold seems to flatten and I can see that Europeans cities are transforming to make life more complicated for cars owners (ie LEZ tax in London) and easier for pedestrians and bikes. Several reasons to be optimistic.

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#20

Post by tiborsaas » Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 10:06 AM UTC

rebuilder wrote: post #3

Are there examples of societies radically changing their lifestyles in order to prevent a disaster?

There are examples of change, but most of the times after disaster stuck.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/education/resources/fire-...

That's human nature: if it ain't broken, don't try to fix it. And ignore those marginal, annoying naysayers, what do they know? But first let's install AC, nobody can work in these heatwaves :)