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Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city

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Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city

#11
post #9

> “There’s also the fact that companies just can’t be bothered a lot of the time – there are roofs all over Europe where solar could probably save money, but people are not jumping to do it.” That's why believing in market forces alone is a little naive. There has to be a little nudge from the government.

I live in a flat, as most europeans do. I'm not even the owner, so how I am supposed to push for that. Even if the owner did I don't think the surface of the roof is enough, not to mention that it has shadows from other buildings, antennas and so on.

It's likely that you would need to get planning permission to put solar panels on the roof of a building. This generally requires you to be the owner.

Therefore it might not be best described as a market failure. It could be better described as a failure due to planning regulations that only give power to land-owners.

This is big problem in Europe, since as you point out: many people rent.

Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city

#12

> “There’s also the fact that companies just can’t be bothered a lot of the time – there are roofs all over Europe where solar could probably save money, but people are not jumping to do it.” That's why believing in market forces alone is a little naive. There has to be a little nudge from the government.

It's still not a clear choice, at least not in Portugal. A solar panel + battery setup pays itself back in 10-12 years, without selling electricity back to the grid. This exceeds the warranty/lifetime on batteries and exceeds the warranty on panels (although not the lifetime). It's a risky proposition.

Selling back to the grid is priced at the wholesale price: 4¢/kWh (slated for 5¢ early next year). It's sold at a loss, since consumer prices are about 10¢/kWh by night and 20¢/kWh by day. The ability to sell back does not move the needle on the payback period.

And note that Portugal is a sunny country. A panel works, on yearly average, 5h/day at full power. In central/northern Europe the numbers are probably worse.

Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city

#14

> “There’s also the fact that companies just can’t be bothered a lot of the time – there are roofs all over Europe where solar could probably save money, but people are not jumping to do it.” That's why believing in market forces alone is a little naive. There has to be a little nudge from the government.

People do buy houses, cars, even electronics like laptops through a lease. It is the banks and financial institutes that need a bit of nudge (or appropriate market signals) to start offering competitive lease options and people will be buying solar panels in no time.

On the other hand, the recent California law about new houses needing solar panels is a step in the right direction.

Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city

#15

> “There’s also the fact that companies just can’t be bothered a lot of the time – there are roofs all over Europe where solar could probably save money, but people are not jumping to do it.” That's why believing in market forces alone is a little naive. There has to be a little nudge from the government.

Installing solar panels has become more and more uninteresting, at least in Germany.

In former times there were generous subsidies for installing solar panels: You got, I think, a fixed amount per kWh that you installed on your roof and you also got a better price for the electricity that you put back into the grid. In Germany it's called "Einspeisevergütung" if I remember correctly.

This program was limited though, and now you have to pay for the panels all yourself (or you get only a little bonus from the state) and the prices for "selling" into the grid have fallen drastically because there's just too much electricity on sunny days and its sold for negative values on the international electricity markets.

Installing new solar panels on your roof is now only interesting when you can use the electricity for yourself. That means charging EVs, filling battery-powered storage (also expensive and not subsidized, I think) or using the electricity around and in your house.

If you've got an older installation you might benefit from the old tariffs and get a little bit more money, but building new systems is rather uninteresting for private households.

With rising prices for electricity there will be new "motivation" for installing new solar systems on your house. But as already said, only for using the electricity for yourself.

Also a law was changed recently, so that renters can now install their own "balcony solar systems" (one panel for example) and feed that electricity right back into their grid through the wall outlet. This is only allowed with small systems though, so that you may produce enough energy for your household base load, but not make your meter turn backwards.

In the bigger picture all of this shows how Germany has, so far, failed to do a real switch to renewable energies or really take a step into that direction.

We got lots of solar systems and lots of wind turbines, but we are not able to store the produced electricity for later use. So lots of wind turbines are turned out of the wind, because there's an overproduction of electricity on windy days. And prices for solar generated electricity have dropped, as already mentioned.

Meanwhile the four large energy companies in Germany are doing what they want and are holding the government as hostage.

Chopping down woods without any need, because some coal-fired power stations needs to be run because we could otherwise lose 20.000 jobs all over Germany.

Nobody thinks about how many jobs we could create with a heavy switch and investment in renewable energies and storage solutions for energy.

After all, taking a step backwards it's kind of a sad situation.

Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city

#16

This isn't meant to be troll-y / snark-y, but if the USA factored out subsidies for Big Oil, and then added in the military costs associated with keeping the oil flowing, that would make solar look much more attractive.

This isn't only sunk cost, it's attributed to different budgets. You would struggle to get many people to accept the subsidy exists. Likewise in car manufacture, or aircraft, or almost any established industry with a large cost/price distinction and externalities unmet.

All gas and oil has fugitive C02 issues. Look what happened with that gas storage well in California which had months long leaks. Were the owners required to offset the extra CO2? Or the gulf oil leaks which have been continuously flowing since the sixties? Or tar sands?

Nobody budgets the remediation cost into the unit cost of the energy.

Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city

#18

This isn't meant to be troll-y / snark-y, but if the USA factored out subsidies for Big Oil, and then added in the military costs associated with keeping the oil flowing, that would make solar look much more attractive.

Even if we become energy independent from ME oil, which we’re net independent I think, (and about 90% on the crude side?) then we still have Japan, Europe and many parts in Asia which need uninterrupted oil supplies from the ME.

Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city

#19
From engineering standpoint it is not an easy task to balance random load that comes and goes from solar, centralized solar plants is one thing but panels on the roof is another. While electricity is abundant running the grid is not such an easy task as it may seem. So this might explain why there is such push back from utility companies against uncontrolled user solar devices connected to their grid.

Re: Solar now ‘cheaper than grid electricity’ in every Chinese city

#20

From engineering standpoint it is not an easy task to balance random load that comes and goes from solar, centralized solar plants is one thing but panels on the roof is another. While electricity is abundant running the grid is not such an easy task as it may seem. So this might explain why there is such push back from utility companies against uncontrolled user solar devices connected to their grid.

what does "balance the random load" mean in an engineering context? i would have thought electricity would balance itself?
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