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Energy Storage Investments Boom as Battery Costs Halve in the Next Decade

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Re: Energy Storage Investments Boom as Battery Costs Halve in the Next Decade

#11

Post by ZeroGravitas »

new_realist wrote: post #8

For long term energy storage batteries are not ideal. Their costs increase linearly with time of storage and amount of storage. Peak shaving is an OK use for them, though.

What percentage of our global storage needs do you believe are "long term" in this dichotomy?

Is this at the "electric cars can't do my daily commute" or "electric cars can't tow my boat 600 miles without stopping, once a year" stage?

Seems like most of the world just needs solar to last until the next day with a decent chunk of that power needed immediately after the sun sets and any wind power available could get smoothed out and/or stored for the morning by the same batteries.

Re: Energy Storage Investments Boom as Battery Costs Halve in the Next Decade

#12

Post by StavrosK »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #11
new_realist wrote: post #8

For long term energy storage batteries are not ideal. Their costs increase linearly with time of storage and amount of storage. Peak shaving is an OK use for them, though.

What percentage of our global storage needs do you believe are "long term" in this dichotomy? Is this at the "electric cars can't do my daily commute" or "electric cars can't tow my boat 600 miles without stopping, once a year" stage? Seems like most of the world just needs solar to last until the next day with a decent chunk of that power needed immediately after the sun sets and any wind power available could get s…

If an electric car can do 200km on a charge, that's 99.9% of my annual driving needs met.

Re: Energy Storage Investments Boom as Battery Costs Halve in the Next Decade

#13

Post by jhayward »

new_realist wrote: post #8

For long term energy storage batteries are not ideal. Their costs increase linearly with time of storage and amount of storage. Peak shaving is an OK use for them, though.

Is there any storage mechanism whose costs don't increase in the same way?

Re: Energy Storage Investments Boom as Battery Costs Halve in the Next Decade

#14

Post by the8472 »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #11
new_realist wrote: post #8

For long term energy storage batteries are not ideal. Their costs increase linearly with time of storage and amount of storage. Peak shaving is an OK use for them, though.

What percentage of our global storage needs do you believe are "long term" in this dichotomy? Is this at the "electric cars can't do my daily commute" or "electric cars can't tow my boat 600 miles without stopping, once a year" stage? Seems like most of the world just needs solar to last until the next day with a decent chunk of that power needed immediately after the sun sets and any wind power available could get s…

The sun does not shine every day. And not equally throughout all seasons. As the percentage of renewables increases so will the gaps on bad days/weeks.

The differences can be dramatic and must be compensated some way. https://www.energy-charts.de/power.htm?source=solar-wind&yea...

Re: Energy Storage Investments Boom as Battery Costs Halve in the Next Decade

#15

Post by diafygi »

new_realist wrote: post #8

For long term energy storage batteries are not ideal. Their costs increase linearly with time of storage and amount of storage. Peak shaving is an OK use for them, though.

Luckily, there's plenty of carbon to offset (peakers) by deploying batteries before we have to worry about long term (seasonal) storage.

However, I wouldn't be surprised if the electrification of transportation ends up making batteries be the default "long term" storage option by using EVs as flexible grid storage. There's going to be 100x more batteries rolling around than what you'd need to stabilize the grid (e.g. peakers), so I wouldn't be surprised if the grid asks more from EVs than just stability so it doesn't have to spend the additional capital for seasonal storage.

Re: Energy Storage Investments Boom as Battery Costs Halve in the Next Decade

#16

Post by the8472 »

jhayward wrote: post #13
new_realist wrote: post #8

For long term energy storage batteries are not ideal. Their costs increase linearly with time of storage and amount of storage. Peak shaving is an OK use for them, though.

Is there any storage mechanism whose costs don't increase in the same way?

Anything that involves volumes and abundant resources.

E.g. storing hydrogen or compressed air in a salt dome decouples the power rating of your storage (MW) from the storage capacity (MWh). Similarly hydroelectric dams contain water by volume but you only need to dam a cross-section of the valley.

Re: Energy Storage Investments Boom as Battery Costs Halve in the Next Decade

#18

Post by SECProto »

the8472 wrote: post #14
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What percentage of our global storage needs do you believe are "long term" in this dichotomy? Is this at the "electric cars can't do my daily commute" or "electric cars can't tow my boat 600 miles without stopping, once a year" stage? Seems like most of the world just needs solar to last until the next day with a decent chunk of that power needed immediately after the sun sets and any wind power available could get s…

The sun does not shine every day. And not equally throughout all seasons. As the percentage of renewables increases so will the gaps on bad days/weeks. The differences can be dramatic and must be compensated some way. https://www.energy-charts.de/power.htm?source=solar-wind&yea...

Short term solution: natural gas peaker plants could be repurposed to provide power during lulls in production (better than most fossil fuels, but very expensive and still produce greenhouse gases, so can't be the solution for long)

Medium term solution: long-distance transmission, overprovision, and even more grid-scale storage (whole continents don't get cloudy & calm at once for long periods of time)

Potential long term solution: space-based solar (power is 24/7, just need lots of landing locations + distribution, because microwaves are attenuated by atmospheric moisture)

Edit: tl;dr is that for the issues, there are many potential solutions

Re: Energy Storage Investments Boom as Battery Costs Halve in the Next Decade

#20

Post by WanderPanda »

SECProto wrote: post #18
the8472 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sun does not shine every day. And not equally throughout all seasons. As the percentage of renewables increases so will the gaps on bad days/weeks. The differences can be dramatic and must be compensated some way. https://www.energy-charts.de/power.htm?source=solar-wind&yea...

Short term solution: natural gas peaker plants could be repurposed to provide power during lulls in production (better than most fossil fuels, but very expensive and still produce greenhouse gases, so can't be the solution for long) Medium term solution: long-distance transmission, overprovision, and even more grid-scale storage (whole continents don't get cloudy & calm at once for long periods of time) Potential lon…

Wont introducing net energy to the earth add to the warming?
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