Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

bloomberg.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 158 posts

Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#11

Post by Aloha »

toyg wrote: post #10
Aloha wrote: post #7

Imagine if your bugfix process was broadcast to the world, every new IN added to spirateam et al, every new crash condition found by test/QA, every time the software failed in test, it got printed by news organizations the world over. This is world the 737MAX software people are living in, for this alone, they have my utmost respect.

Imagine if your software had already killed a few hundred people. Boeing developers have been put in an untenable position and should consider walking out until management does the right thing and kills the plane.

The plane has no fundamental mechanical flaw, it has a software bug.

The only flaw the plane had was being treated as 'just another 737'

Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#12

Post by ulfw »

Aloha wrote: post #7

Imagine if your bugfix process was broadcast to the world, every new IN added to spirateam et al, every new crash condition found by test/QA, every time the software failed in test, it got printed by news organizations the world over. This is world the 737MAX software people are living in, for this alone, they have my utmost respect.

Imagine a world where a certification agency tasked to examine a plane for faults before certifying it so as to assure people aren’t killed needlessly, would have actually done their job instead of outsourcing it to the very same manufacturer whose incentive it is to certify itself ASAP. Novel concept, I know.

But where would we be without corruption...

Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#13

Post by gamedori »

supercanuck wrote: post #9
Aloha wrote: post #7

Imagine if your bugfix process was broadcast to the world, every new IN added to spirateam et al, every new crash condition found by test/QA, every time the software failed in test, it got printed by news organizations the world over. This is world the 737MAX software people are living in, for this alone, they have my utmost respect.

imagine if your bug has the potential to kill 300 people.

To be fair, if another 150 people die that will be the end of the 737 program - and probably Boeing. 300 more deaths is highly unlikely.

Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#14

Post by nocturnial »

I really can't help to think that the design and production of this plane was rushed.

They used a one sensor input to MCAS because the FAA wouldn't certify a two sensor input without requiring a level D certification which meant sim training for pilots.

This latest revelation in the article only strengthens my belief it was rushed and possibly to the point that it was irresponsible.

Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#15

Post by ulfw »

teawrecks wrote: post #3
pcl wrote: post #2

> Because the fault was triggered by specific streams of erroneous flight data, a new software patch can be devised that monitors the computer for that highly unusual condition and prevents movement of the stabilizer when it occurs, one of the people said. Oh man. That sounds like a mess.

Bandaid fix if I've ever heard of one.

That describes the whole 50+ years old 737 to it’s core.

Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#16

Post by ulfw »

Aloha wrote: post #11
toyg wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine if your software had already killed a few hundred people. Boeing developers have been put in an untenable position and should consider walking out until management does the right thing and kills the plane.

The plane has no fundamental mechanical flaw, it has a software bug. The only flaw the plane had was being treated as 'just another 737'

It has plenty of uncertifiable components grandfathered in for 50 years, topped with ‘still within range of grandfathering’ pieces of bandaid software on top.

It’s fundamental because the whole fundament this rests one isn’t stable and all the adding instability add-ons do not make sense.

Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#17

Post by ulfw »

gamedori wrote: post #13
supercanuck wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

imagine if your bug has the potential to kill 300 people.

To be fair, if another 150 people die that will be the end of the 737 program - and probably Boeing. 300 more deaths is highly unlikely.

So one more plane crash is possible but two are not?? Huh?

Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#18

Post by burfog »

teawrecks wrote: post #3
pcl wrote: post #2

> Because the fault was triggered by specific streams of erroneous flight data, a new software patch can be devised that monitors the computer for that highly unusual condition and prevents movement of the stabilizer when it occurs, one of the people said. Oh man. That sounds like a mess.

Bandaid fix if I've ever heard of one.

It's proper. This is exactly how you do things with life-critical embedded software. You detect when things are crazy, which of course shouldn't happen but nevertheless does, and you react in a way that is hopefully not disastrous.

The alternative is to ignore the problem.

Sensors go bad. Actuators go bad. Voting hardware goes bad. Message routing goes bad. Even the RAM sometimes goes bad.

When the hardware is failing ("specific streams of erroneous flight data") there isn't going to be a reliable solution. You can't even fully enumerate all the possible failures. How could you possibly guess that a message routing chip now flips bit 7 in every angle-of-attack measurement?

Boeing's answer is standard: when the values look crazy, stop doing stuff that might make the situation worse.

Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#19

Post by Aloha »

gamedori wrote: post #13
supercanuck wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

imagine if your bug has the potential to kill 300 people.

To be fair, if another 150 people die that will be the end of the 737 program - and probably Boeing. 300 more deaths is highly unlikely.

I think you underestimate Boeing size, wealth, and importance to the federal government.

Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#20

Post by CamperBob2 »

ulfw wrote: post #17
gamedori wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, if another 150 people die that will be the end of the 737 program - and probably Boeing. 300 more deaths is highly unlikely.

So one more plane crash is possible but two are not?? Huh?

Yes. After one more plane crash, it will probably become uneconomical for carriers to continue operating the 737.
Post reply on HN