China's rising tech scene threatens US brain drain as ‘sea turtles’ return home • Hacker News Board

Re: China's rising tech scene threatens US brain drain as ‘sea turtles’ return home

#11

Post by akmarinov » Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 4:46 PM UTC

Ancalagon wrote: post #2

> “Wang said the salaries of his 40-person team for two years cost $700,000.” Good luck with that. If you’re averaging $10k per employee per year over the long term, I guarantee anyone with the ability to be a good engineer is still going to come to the US where they can make orders of magnitude more.

Well, they kind of contradict themselves later on

> The pay discrepancy between Silicon Valley and China has narrowed since he launched in 2014, especially at top-tier firms. Wang’s engineers now make 70 percent to 80 percent of what they could get in America.

So it was 700k in 2014, but now it's 70-80% of what US people would make.

Re: China's rising tech scene threatens US brain drain as ‘sea turtles’ return home

#12

Post by devy » Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 4:47 PM UTC

otoburb wrote: post #3

"Wang Meng Qiu, a startup founder who graduated from Stanford University with a doctorate in computer science, held jobs at Facebook and Twitter in Silicon Valley before he moved to the outskirts of Shanghai to launch his own drone company, Zero Zero Robotics. Wang said the salaries of his 40-person team for two years cost $700,000." Generously assuming that the full 40-person team didn't onboard until year 2, that's…

> that's an annual average salary of only 17,500 USD per person.

That is realistic and in line with fresh out of college Computer Science graduate market rate. I know that because I went to an undergraduate CS degree in China.

Developers are working harder in China too. The famous 996 work schedule has been prevalent in Internet software startups in China.[1] Hence the anti-996 movement.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/996_working_hour_system

Re: China's rising tech scene threatens US brain drain as ‘sea turtles’ return home

#13

Post by Causality1 » Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 4:49 PM UTC

We're quite far from the scale tipping in that direction, but it makes me curious about whether the US government has the legal authority to say "educating foreigners is no longer in the national interest, therefore it is no longer a valid reason to remain in the United States" and decimate the foreign student population essentially overnight.

Re: China's rising tech scene threatens US brain drain as ‘sea turtles’ return home

#14

Post by Andhurati » Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 4:55 PM UTC

akmarinov wrote: post #11

Ancalagon wrote: post #2

> “Wang said the salaries of his 40-person team for two years cost $700,000.” Good luck with that. If you’re averaging $10k per employee per year over the long term, I guarantee anyone with the ability to be a good engineer is still going to come to the US where they can make orders of magnitude more.

Well, they kind of contradict themselves later on > The pay discrepancy between Silicon Valley and China has narrowed since he launched in 2014, especially at top-tier firms. Wang’s engineers now make 70 percent to 80 percent of what they could get in America. So it was 700k in 2014, but now it's 70-80% of what US people would make.

With Chinese cost of living. So, no reason to stay in the Bay Area if you were raised in China.

Re: China's rising tech scene threatens US brain drain as ‘sea turtles’ return home

#15

Post by liberte82 » Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 4:55 PM UTC

wesleyfsmith wrote: post #9

The most concerning quote: "About 80 percent of Chinese students who get degrees abroad now go back — up from about 33 percent in 2007, according to China’s Ministry of Education. Some 15 percent take jobs in China’s booming tech sector." Attracting top global talent has always been a competitive advance for America, and it's not a good sign for our economy if we can't retain people that we are educating here.

It's difficult to blame Chinese students for not wanting to stay when they're being met with outright hostile rhetoric from the political establishment. Economic considerations completely aside, no one wants to live and work in that kind of environment.

Re: China's rising tech scene threatens US brain drain as ‘sea turtles’ return home

#16

Post by pjc50 » Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 4:56 PM UTC

Causality1 wrote: post #13

We're quite far from the scale tipping in that direction, but it makes me curious about whether the US government has the legal authority to say "educating foreigners is no longer in the national interest, therefore it is no longer a valid reason to remain in the United States" and decimate the foreign student population essentially overnight.

It can almost certainly unilaterally revoke all the visas. Why the US wants to blow up its own higher education system would be beyond me, though.

Re: China's rising tech scene threatens US brain drain as ‘sea turtles’ return home

#17

Post by ASalazarMX » Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 4:56 PM UTC

Causality1 wrote: post #13

We're quite far from the scale tipping in that direction, but it makes me curious about whether the US government has the legal authority to say "educating foreigners is no longer in the national interest, therefore it is no longer a valid reason to remain in the United States" and decimate the foreign student population essentially overnight.

Don't they pay full tuition? Even if they don't stay, it's a smaller net gain they study in USA.

Re: China's rising tech scene threatens US brain drain as ‘sea turtles’ return home

#18

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 5:00 PM UTC

wesleyfsmith wrote: post #9

The most concerning quote: "About 80 percent of Chinese students who get degrees abroad now go back — up from about 33 percent in 2007, according to China’s Ministry of Education. Some 15 percent take jobs in China’s booming tech sector." Attracting top global talent has always been a competitive advance for America, and it's not a good sign for our economy if we can't retain people that we are educating here.

[deleted]

Re: China's rising tech scene threatens US brain drain as ‘sea turtles’ return home

#19

Post by suyash » Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 5:03 PM UTC

Andhurati wrote: post #14

akmarinov wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, they kind of contradict themselves later on > The pay discrepancy between Silicon Valley and China has narrowed since he launched in 2014, especially at top-tier firms. Wang’s engineers now make 70 percent to 80 percent of what they could get in America. So it was 700k in 2014, but now it's 70-80% of what US people would make.

With Chinese cost of living. So, no reason to stay in the Bay Area if you were raised in China.

There are several other reasons for not living in China, have you ever been there? Freedom, Privacy, Pollution, Corruption, Healthcare etc.

Re: China's rising tech scene threatens US brain drain as ‘sea turtles’ return home

#20

Post by throwaway082729 » Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 5:05 PM UTC

Causality1 wrote: post #13

We're quite far from the scale tipping in that direction, but it makes me curious about whether the US government has the legal authority to say "educating foreigners is no longer in the national interest, therefore it is no longer a valid reason to remain in the United States" and decimate the foreign student population essentially overnight.

They are already planning to gut the OPT (Optional Practical Training) program which will all but ensure that students that do their Masters or Ph.D here will not be able to take their time to find a job. They'll need their H1-B visa available by the time they graduate or go back home.