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Honeybees are found to interact with Quantum fields

neuroquantology.com

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Re: Honeybees are found to interact with Quantum fields

#11

Post by ewjordan »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #8

I'll repost my comment from the last version of this article, since I don't think any new developments have invalidated it. This connection to QFT is almost surely nonsense. The flag manifold in question comes from matrix groups; basically, consider some subset of 3x3 matrices which satisfy a certain property. I.e., certain types of transformations of a 3d space. While the space of 3x3 matrices has 3x3=9 dimensions,…

You've summed up the technical bit of this perfectly, nothing to add there. Would be a very interesting bit of research, but the speculation really drives me mad, as it's so out there and without evidence to back it up that it's not even worth considering.

I have to go further, though - that the researcher is so quick to automatically draw that line connecting two phenomena that both involve group theory as being causally related indicates, to me, that we should be skeptical even about whether the explanation of the bee behavior is correct in any detail. Sometimes when you already know what you really want to "discover", it's very easy to see connections and patterns that don't hold up very well under further scrutiny.

The "this group has something to do with bees, and it's also in QFT, ZOMG bees must read quantum fields!" line of logic is so naive (yummyfajitas explained why) that it really makes me suspicious about the whole bit of research. Scientists should keep sloppy thinking like that to themselves (analogy is a great way to guide your research efforts, and once in a while two appearances of the same group in seemingly unrelated phenomena will, in fact, be connected), and when they don't even realize that this kind of thinking is sloppy, it's not a good sign...

Re: Honeybees are found to interact with Quantum fields

#12

Post by presidentender »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #8

I'll repost my comment from the last version of this article, since I don't think any new developments have invalidated it. This connection to QFT is almost surely nonsense. The flag manifold in question comes from matrix groups; basically, consider some subset of 3x3 matrices which satisfy a certain property. I.e., certain types of transformations of a 3d space. While the space of 3x3 matrices has 3x3=9 dimensions,…

One could just as well say that thrown objects interact with squares, as a square's area and a thrown object's flight path are both modeled by parabolas.

Re: Honeybees are found to interact with Quantum fields

#13

Post by nickpinkston »

Yes, she has probably been reading too much Deepak Chopra - but the comments saying things like "scientists should keep that kind of sloppy thinking to themselves" seem to be off the mark in the other direction.

If a serious researcher, like she's trying to be, has an idea that there may be even a slight chance something amazing might be happening, they should talk to everyone she knows in the field - not keep it to herself.

If a journal is willing to publish - it must have past some muster. It's not like this is going to clutter the field.

Most of the amazing ideas in science where heretical in their time (even to other scientists) - we should encourage this type of thinking in science instead of encouraging only those unwilling to take any risks.

Re: Honeybees are found to interact with Quantum fields

#14

Post by swannodette »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #8

I'll repost my comment from the last version of this article, since I don't think any new developments have invalidated it. This connection to QFT is almost surely nonsense. The flag manifold in question comes from matrix groups; basically, consider some subset of 3x3 matrices which satisfy a certain property. I.e., certain types of transformations of a 3d space. While the space of 3x3 matrices has 3x3=9 dimensions,…

Are you a biologist?

  > Inside the bee's head is an ODE (ordinary differential equation) solver
  > basically an analog computer. Just think of the ODE solver as a complicated
  > timer, but with output depending on both time and some hidden variable. 
  > These are common objects in biology, and don't require many neurons.
Do you have any sources to back any of this up at all?

EDIT: Here's a very long list of papers on Honeybee navigation. http://www.sciencemag.org/content/287/5454/851.abstract. From the looks of no one really knows how it works. That includes the OP.

Re: Honeybees are found to interact with Quantum fields

#15

Post by jerf »

swannodette wrote: post #14
yummyfajitas wrote: post #8

I'll repost my comment from the last version of this article, since I don't think any new developments have invalidated it. This connection to QFT is almost surely nonsense. The flag manifold in question comes from matrix groups; basically, consider some subset of 3x3 matrices which satisfy a certain property. I.e., certain types of transformations of a 3d space. While the space of 3x3 matrices has 3x3=9 dimensions,…

Are you a biologist? > Inside the bee's head is an ODE (ordinary differential equation) solver > basically an analog computer. Just think of the ODE solver as a complicated > timer, but with output depending on both time and some hidden variable. > These are common objects in biology, and don't require many neurons. Do you have any sources to back any of this up at all? EDIT: Here's a very long list of papers on Hone…

An "analog computer" is what a neuron is, or, if you prefer, an analog computing element.

And yes, neural nets can do some varieties of them, see http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/Xplore/login.jsp?url=http%3A%2F%2... for one example (consult Google for many more, '"ordinary differential equation" neuron' just goes on and on) and while that may be computational neurons, real neurons are not less powerful. This is not such an amazing assertion, it's more the sort of thing that is easy to forget non-specialists in the field (or interested laymen) might require citations for.

Re: Honeybees are found to interact with Quantum fields

#16

Post by swannodette »

jerf wrote: post #15
swannodette wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you a biologist? > Inside the bee's head is an ODE (ordinary differential equation) solver > basically an analog computer. Just think of the ODE solver as a complicated > timer, but with output depending on both time and some hidden variable. > These are common objects in biology, and don't require many neurons. Do you have any sources to back any of this up at all? EDIT: Here's a very long list of papers on Hone…

An "analog computer" is what a neuron is , or, if you prefer, an analog computing element. And yes, neural nets can do some varieties of them, see http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/Xplore/login.jsp?url=http%3A%2F%2... for one example (consult Google for many more, '"ordinary differential equation" neuron' just goes on and on) and while that may be computational neurons, real neurons are not less powerful. This is not such a…

Whether artificial neural nets can approximate ODE's and whether neural networks in nature actually do this is not clear. Biology citations please.

EDIT: To the reply. None of those papers state that evolution causes naturally occurring neural networks to become ODE solvers.

Re: Honeybees are found to interact with Quantum fields

#18

Post by yummyfajitas »

swannodette wrote: post #14
yummyfajitas wrote: post #8

I'll repost my comment from the last version of this article, since I don't think any new developments have invalidated it. This connection to QFT is almost surely nonsense. The flag manifold in question comes from matrix groups; basically, consider some subset of 3x3 matrices which satisfy a certain property. I.e., certain types of transformations of a 3d space. While the space of 3x3 matrices has 3x3=9 dimensions,…

Are you a biologist? > Inside the bee's head is an ODE (ordinary differential equation) solver > basically an analog computer. Just think of the ODE solver as a complicated > timer, but with output depending on both time and some hidden variable. > These are common objects in biology, and don't require many neurons. Do you have any sources to back any of this up at all? EDIT: Here's a very long list of papers on Hone…

No, I'm a (former) mathematical physicist. My main source for that particular paragraph is a math bio textbook I used in grad school (standard yellow book), combined with attendance at a huge number of math bio seminars [1].

However, if you want a source for the general statement that a lot of systems biology works out to ODEs, I'll point you to some general models which form the basis for most work in mathematical neuroscience:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_neuron_models

[1] If you are in quantitative grad school, I highly recommend you to do the same even if you are studying something completely different (e.g., quantum physics or abstract algebra). The math and biology are usually simple and explained very well, and you wind up learning a lot about both.

Re: Honeybees are found to interact with Quantum fields

#19

Post by yummyfajitas »

swannodette wrote: post #16
jerf wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An "analog computer" is what a neuron is , or, if you prefer, an analog computing element. And yes, neural nets can do some varieties of them, see http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/Xplore/login.jsp?url=http%3A%2F%2... for one example (consult Google for many more, '"ordinary differential equation" neuron' just goes on and on) and while that may be computational neurons, real neurons are not less powerful. This is not such a…

Whether artificial neural nets can approximate ODE's and whether neural networks in nature actually do this is not clear. Biology citations please. EDIT: To the reply. None of those papers state that evolution causes naturally occurring neural networks to become ODE solvers.

I usually hate to argue by authority, but in this case I'll make an exception. Perhaps you are familiar with the work that got Hodgkin and Huxley the 1963 Nobel Prize in Physiology and Medicine?

Ok, I won't just be lazy. Here are the original papers:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=139221...

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=139221...

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=139220...

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=139221...

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=139241...

By the way, the question is not whether ANN's approximate ODEs, but whether ODEs can approximate BNNs (or whatever other processes guide the honeybee dance).

[edit in response to your edit: those papers show that a neuron's behavior is well described as an ODE solver. How it evolved is irrelevant.]

Re: Honeybees are found to interact with Quantum fields

#20

Post by swannodette »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #18
swannodette wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you a biologist? > Inside the bee's head is an ODE (ordinary differential equation) solver > basically an analog computer. Just think of the ODE solver as a complicated > timer, but with output depending on both time and some hidden variable. > These are common objects in biology, and don't require many neurons. Do you have any sources to back any of this up at all? EDIT: Here's a very long list of papers on Hone…

No, I'm a (former) mathematical physicist. My main source for that particular paragraph is a math bio textbook I used in grad school (standard yellow book), combined with attendance at a huge number of math bio seminars [1]. However, if you want a source for the general statement that a lot of systems biology works out to ODEs, I'll point you to some general models which form the basis for most work in mathematical n…

Sure. But the point here is that your simply presenting another theory, possibly as far-fetched as the one presented in the original article.
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