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How Norway turns criminals into good neighbours

bbc.co.uk

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Re: How Norway turns criminals into good neighbours

#11

Post by thatcat »

rofo1 wrote: post #9
matthewmacleod wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are no life sentences; this does not mean that individuals can’t be detained indefinitely. If a prisoner is not judged fit for release, their sentence can be extended by up to I think four or five years at a time. The Norwegian prison system isn’t releasing flocks of “serial killers and paedophile rapists” as a result of not imposing life sentences at conviction.

OK in that case, it's semantics. You can call it whatever you want, as long as you keep certain people forever excluded from society. Preferably at low cost.

It's not semantics. Every judgment is not accurate, systems need to account for their own fallibility.

Re: How Norway turns criminals into good neighbours

#13

Post by devoply »

MarkMc wrote: post #2

Norway also has the world’s lowest recidivism rate at 20 percent, while America sees 75 percent of its prisoners re-offend within five years of release. [0] It's interesting that in the U.S. many people champion the power of incentives to produce goods and services efficiently yet are blind to the perverse incentives of having privately-run prisons. Of course a corporation whose profit comes from running prisons does…

Puritan ethics based on punishment rather than rehabilitation and problem solving.

Re: How Norway turns criminals into good neighbours

#14

Post by rofo1 »

thatcat wrote: post #11
rofo1 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK in that case, it's semantics. You can call it whatever you want, as long as you keep certain people forever excluded from society. Preferably at low cost.

It's not semantics. Every judgment is not accurate, systems need to account for their own fallibility.

Not sure why we are talking about accuracy(?) all of a sudden, but goes without saying that I am talking about actionable convictions where the party is guilty, given based on facts and without prejudice.

My main point is people who commit certain severe crimes (think about serial killers, raping children, mutilation, premeditated murders/arson/lying in wait, etc.; these people should remain behind bars for all eternity. That's just my opinion; I can't imagine going to the families victims and telling them "dont worry, they will be good in a couple of years, and will get to live their lives thanks to our tax dollars, while your son/daughter rots in a grave".

There's no justice, no humanity in that.

Re: How Norway turns criminals into good neighbours

#15

Post by aalleavitch »

rofo1 wrote: post #14
thatcat wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not semantics. Every judgment is not accurate, systems need to account for their own fallibility.

Not sure why we are talking about accuracy(?) all of a sudden, but goes without saying that I am talking about actionable convictions where the party is guilty, given based on facts and without prejudice. My main point is people who commit certain severe crimes (think about serial killers, raping children, mutilation, premeditated murders/arson/lying in wait, etc.; these people should remain behind bars for all etern…

People can commit these crimes for a wide array of reasons and under a wide array of circumstances. Someone could commit a heinous crime while under the influence of powerful narcotics but still be a perfectly decent person once they've been treated for their addiction. It's not possible to say who can and who cannot be rehabilitated at the moment of sentencing. It's something you should update your judgement on continuously throughout their sentence.

And in my mind, reconciliation is always better than revenge. I should think any family should be happier to know that the killer lived to deeply regret their crimes and become a better person than to think that somewhere out there is someone locked in a cage wallowing in resentment and still thinks what they did was right.

Re: How Norway turns criminals into good neighbours

#16

Post by aalleavitch »

rofo1 wrote: post #3

> "In Norway, the punishment is just to take away someone's liberty. The other rights stay. Prisoners can vote, they can have access to school, to health care; they have the same rights as any Norwegian citizen. Because inmates are human beings. They have done wrong, they must be punished, but they are still human beings." > "In Norway, all will be released - there are no life sentences," he reminds me. Really? Even…

> I don't even think deranged people like serial killers and pedophile rapists can change.

It's a lot better to base this judgement on real data than on the vengeful feelings of the wronged.

Humans aren't adapted to the possibility of reconciliation, our knee-jerk reaction is revenge out of past necessities. But if we can afford to rehabilitate someone, we absolutely should. We should never limit the rights we grant people purely out of vengeance.

Re: How Norway turns criminals into good neighbours

#17

Post by rolltiide »

rofo1 wrote: post #8
rolltiide wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well pedophiles and rapists arent all given life sentences in the US system, it varies greatly So which part do you disagree with? That prisoners can vote?

I find that unbearable and senseless, doesn't matter who does it. Certain people need to be excluded from the society and there is nothing wrong with it. Why do we insist otherwise? How did we manage to convince ourselves that is "more humane"?

When the prison population got too big and ensnaring prisoners became too efficient

It is undermining the productivity of our society when we have such a large marginalized population that is unemployed and desperate

Re: How Norway turns criminals into good neighbours

#18

Post by kazen44 »

rolltiide wrote: post #7
rofo1 wrote: post #3

> "In Norway, the punishment is just to take away someone's liberty. The other rights stay. Prisoners can vote, they can have access to school, to health care; they have the same rights as any Norwegian citizen. Because inmates are human beings. They have done wrong, they must be punished, but they are still human beings." > "In Norway, all will be released - there are no life sentences," he reminds me. Really? Even…

Well pedophiles and rapists arent all given life sentences in the US system, it varies greatly So which part do you disagree with? That prisoners can vote?

the fact that prisoners cannot vote seems bizarre to me. This seems like a massive tool to prevent your political opponents from voting.

Re: How Norway turns criminals into good neighbours

#19

Post by kazen44 »

matthewmacleod wrote: post #4
rofo1 wrote: post #3

> "In Norway, the punishment is just to take away someone's liberty. The other rights stay. Prisoners can vote, they can have access to school, to health care; they have the same rights as any Norwegian citizen. Because inmates are human beings. They have done wrong, they must be punished, but they are still human beings." > "In Norway, all will be released - there are no life sentences," he reminds me. Really? Even…

There are no life sentences; this does not mean that individuals can’t be detained indefinitely. If a prisoner is not judged fit for release, their sentence can be extended by up to I think four or five years at a time. The Norwegian prison system isn’t releasing flocks of “serial killers and paedophile rapists” as a result of not imposing life sentences at conviction.

Also, i don't know if norway has the same kind of system (i assume it does. Most western european nations have this). but "terbeschikkingstelling"(TBS) is usually a punishment for people with severe issues like serial killers.

see: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terbeschikkingstelling_(Nederl...

Re: How Norway turns criminals into good neighbours

#20

Post by rofo1 »

aalleavitch wrote: post #16
rofo1 wrote: post #3

> "In Norway, the punishment is just to take away someone's liberty. The other rights stay. Prisoners can vote, they can have access to school, to health care; they have the same rights as any Norwegian citizen. Because inmates are human beings. They have done wrong, they must be punished, but they are still human beings." > "In Norway, all will be released - there are no life sentences," he reminds me. Really? Even…

> I don't even think deranged people like serial killers and pedophile rapists can change. It's a lot better to base this judgement on real data than on the vengeful feelings of the wronged. Humans aren't adapted to the possibility of reconciliation, our knee-jerk reaction is revenge out of past necessities. But if we can afford to rehabilitate someone, we absolutely should. We should never limit the rights we grant…

> Humans aren't adapted to the possibility of reconciliation, our knee-jerk reaction is revenge out of past necessities. But if we can afford to rehabilitate someone, we absolutely should. We should never limit the rights we grant people purely out of vengeance.

I don't think punishment for criminal action is "revenge" or "vengeance". In theory, it is suppose to stop the possibility of it occurring again and hopefully deter people attempting it.

My opinion is that society needs to be protected from certain people.

If you tell me with a straight face that if someone mutilated your kids and did unimaginable things and you are truly fine with accepting that he will live his life as if nothing happened after a few years, I wouldn't believe you are human.

I can be downvoted to oblivion, but it won't change certain facts and realities.

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