The varieties of material existence (2018) • Hacker News Board

Re: The varieties of material existence (2018)

#11

Post by ta1234567890 » Fri, Jun 28, 2019, 5:07 PM UTC

djokkataja wrote: post #8

CrasVestibulum wrote: post #7

quoting the author "Using electrons, protons, and neutrons, it is possible to build: ... a conscious mind; " are 'you' just a collection of electrons, protons and neutrons ?

Fundamentally, all that I am is built from electrons, protons, and neutrons, but if you think I am "just a collection" of such things, you might struggle to differentiate between a human and a rock. I also think that thinking of ourselves as "ultimately" being "nothing more" than whatever fundamentals give rise to our existence is a great way to deprive ourselves of meaning, given that there's quite a bit that goes o…

Fundamentally, I believe, the main issue is that we have a tendency to believe or think that "reality" (the world/universe), is separate from us. But we cannot separate our perception or experience of reality from it. If I don't exist, then _my_ reality doesn't exist. And there's no way for anyone to experience anyone else's reality. So all individual realities are that, individual, and maybe a lot of us can agree on some stuff, but that doesn't necessarily mean that stuff is objectively real for everyone/the universe. We each individually assign meaning to our own experiences and then need to deal with the (maybe apparent) difference in meaning or interpretation among ourselves.

I believe the next big revolution in physics is going to come from incorporating perception and "the observer" as a fundamental part of the models. Consciousness, from my perspective, is the only way we have to "know" the world, which to me means that consciousness is even more basic/fundamental than matter, time or space. And so far, the whole field of physics has been pretty much ignoring it ️

Re: The varieties of material existence (2018)

#12

Post by CrasVestibulum » Fri, Jun 28, 2019, 5:14 PM UTC

ta1234567890 wrote: post #11

djokkataja wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fundamentally, all that I am is built from electrons, protons, and neutrons, but if you think I am "just a collection" of such things, you might struggle to differentiate between a human and a rock. I also think that thinking of ourselves as "ultimately" being "nothing more" than whatever fundamentals give rise to our existence is a great way to deprive ourselves of meaning, given that there's quite a bit that goes o…

Fundamentally, I believe, the main issue is that we have a tendency to believe or think that "reality" (the world/universe), is separate from us. But we cannot separate our perception or experience of reality from it. If I don't exist, then _my_ reality doesn't exist. And there's no way for anyone to experience anyone else's reality. So all individual realities are that, individual, and maybe a lot of us can agree on…

well said! The argument between various schools of philosophy (which includes Materialists / Realists) is age old. We need to revisit / refresh each point of views so we deepen the understanding of 'our' nature. I would suggest a reading of Vedanta school of philosophy as a counter point to Materialism.

Re: The varieties of material existence (2018)

#13

Post by Retra » Fri, Jun 28, 2019, 5:25 PM UTC

cicero wrote: post #6

wellpast wrote: post #5

There is a famous book called The Varieties of Religious Experience. It's probably good or something. I mean, I've never read it, but let me co-opt its title while subtly dismissing it, as a light segue into my blog post...

Also, I will launch into a philosophical discussion of existence from a purely materialistic point of view while ignoring the religious dimension that is almost completely universal to human experience throughout history. I can get away with that because it has become the dominant mode of thought in our materialistic age.

The religious dimension is not universal. The materialistic point of view is. That's why there a many contradictory (and self-contradictory) religions, and only one material world.

Re: The varieties of material existence (2018)

#14

Post by mistermann » Fri, Jun 28, 2019, 5:26 PM UTC

cicero wrote: post #6

wellpast wrote: post #5

There is a famous book called The Varieties of Religious Experience. It's probably good or something. I mean, I've never read it, but let me co-opt its title while subtly dismissing it, as a light segue into my blog post...

Also, I will launch into a philosophical discussion of existence from a purely materialistic point of view while ignoring the religious dimension that is almost completely universal to human experience throughout history. I can get away with that because it has become the dominant mode of thought in our materialistic age.

"As striking as are the varieties of religious experience, they pale beside the variety of material things that can possibly exist in the universe."

Spoken with the self-confidence of someone who's never had anything remotely approaching a religious experience, or deems it worthy of investigation by those with Serious Minds, whose chest will swell with pride as he solemnly observes the traditional a minute of silence once a year as satisfactory repayment to those who've laid down their lives in past wars to his benefit, before carrying on mocking a sacred belief that most of those people likely believed in.

Re: The varieties of material existence (2018)

#15

Post by Retra » Fri, Jun 28, 2019, 5:32 PM UTC

ta1234567890 wrote: post #11

djokkataja wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fundamentally, all that I am is built from electrons, protons, and neutrons, but if you think I am "just a collection" of such things, you might struggle to differentiate between a human and a rock. I also think that thinking of ourselves as "ultimately" being "nothing more" than whatever fundamentals give rise to our existence is a great way to deprive ourselves of meaning, given that there's quite a bit that goes o…

Fundamentally, I believe, the main issue is that we have a tendency to believe or think that "reality" (the world/universe), is separate from us. But we cannot separate our perception or experience of reality from it. If I don't exist, then _my_ reality doesn't exist. And there's no way for anyone to experience anyone else's reality. So all individual realities are that, individual, and maybe a lot of us can agree on…

Yes, physicists are bad at physics because they don't engage in enough woo and wishful thinking. And all of their theories and understandings will become invalid any moment now... just wait...

Re: The varieties of material existence (2018)

#16

Post by Retra » Fri, Jun 28, 2019, 6:00 PM UTC

mistermann wrote: post #14

cicero wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, I will launch into a philosophical discussion of existence from a purely materialistic point of view while ignoring the religious dimension that is almost completely universal to human experience throughout history. I can get away with that because it has become the dominant mode of thought in our materialistic age.

"As striking as are the varieties of religious experience, they pale beside the variety of material things that can possibly exist in the universe." Spoken with the self-confidence of someone who's never had anything remotely approaching a religious experience, or deems it worthy of investigation by those with Serious Minds, whose chest will swell with pride as he solemnly observes the traditional a minute of silence…

Oh, Irony.

Those people in graves? They were put there by material impacts. Serious material impacts. That Serious People do pay a lot of attention to. Because the consequences are real, unambiguous, and repeatedly demonstrable.

Re: The varieties of material existence (2018)

#17

Post by mistermann » Fri, Jun 28, 2019, 7:53 PM UTC

Retra wrote: post #16

mistermann wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"As striking as are the varieties of religious experience, they pale beside the variety of material things that can possibly exist in the universe." Spoken with the self-confidence of someone who's never had anything remotely approaching a religious experience, or deems it worthy of investigation by those with Serious Minds, whose chest will swell with pride as he solemnly observes the traditional a minute of silence…

Oh, Irony. Those people in graves? They were put there by material impacts. Serious material impacts. That Serious People do pay a lot of attention to. Because the consequences are real, unambiguous, and repeatedly demonstrable.

I'm not sure I see the irony. Nothing you've said is contrary to what I've written.

Perhaps there is some sort of a miscommunication here....have you somehow reached the conclusion that I've asserted that material reality doesn't exist, or is unimportant?

Meta: Oh my the throttling is especially strong today, I wonder if the "too fast" algorithm got a little fine tuning to reduce the amount of wrong think getting through the filter.

While we lack the ability to articulate a defense or substantiation of our religion, we more than make up for it with the vigor to downvote, on a platform that censors those with dissenting opinions.

Re: The varieties of material existence (2018)

#18

Post by mlevental » Fri, Jun 28, 2019, 8:27 PM UTC

wellpast wrote: post #5

There is a famous book called The Varieties of Religious Experience. It's probably good or something. I mean, I've never read it, but let me co-opt its title while subtly dismissing it, as a light segue into my blog post...

it says

>Status: Rough and speculative working notes, very quickly written – basically, a little raw thinking and exploration. Knowledgeable corrections welcome!

right at the top

Re: The varieties of material existence (2018)

#19

Post by dang » Fri, Jun 28, 2019, 8:33 PM UTC

wellpast wrote: post #5

There is a famous book called The Varieties of Religious Experience. It's probably good or something. I mean, I've never read it, but let me co-opt its title while subtly dismissing it, as a light segue into my blog post...

"Don't be snarky."

"Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: The varieties of material existence (2018)

#20

Post by dang » Fri, Jun 28, 2019, 8:34 PM UTC

cicero wrote: post #6

wellpast wrote: post #5

There is a famous book called The Varieties of Religious Experience. It's probably good or something. I mean, I've never read it, but let me co-opt its title while subtly dismissing it, as a light segue into my blog post...

Also, I will launch into a philosophical discussion of existence from a purely materialistic point of view while ignoring the religious dimension that is almost completely universal to human experience throughout history. I can get away with that because it has become the dominant mode of thought in our materialistic age.

Please keep religious flamewar off this site.