The Simple Genius of Checklists • Hacker News Board

Re: The Simple Genius of Checklists

#11

Post by supahfly_remix » Thu, Jun 27, 2019, 1:11 PM UTC

ncmncm wrote: post #8

euler_angles wrote: post #6

I have been a flight test and rocket test engineer. Checklists were life, especially in the rocket world. The fantastic thing about checklists is that they both keep you accountable and free your mental resources so that when something happens that one of your checklists don't cover, you know you've at least tried all the sane/expected things. I personally found that backstop freeing and allowed me to use my creativi…

It took three generations of flight training for checklists to become an essential part of aviation. Note that a flight-training generation is less than a human reproductive generation; it's the time from first lesson taken to first lesson taught (plus some). It had to wait for the older instructors to retire. We are still in transition, in medicine. Many physicians have not yet cottoned to hand-washing, yet.

> Many physicians have not yet cottoned to hand-washing, yet.

What?!? How many generations has it been since Louis Pasteur?

Re: The Simple Genius of Checklists

#12

Post by rb808 » Thu, Jun 27, 2019, 1:11 PM UTC

I hate checklists. I've just done an information security checklist at work, 200 questions, lots of them irrelevant, many are very vague, often require evidence that is time consuming to put together. Next week I have a release that I have to put a change ticket in for - another 50 boxes with questions and combos. I'm ready to quit. Don't let checklists turn your company into a bureaucratic hell hole.

Re: The Simple Genius of Checklists

#13

Post by decoyworker » Thu, Jun 27, 2019, 1:12 PM UTC

rb808 wrote: post #12

I hate checklists. I've just done an information security checklist at work, 200 questions, lots of them irrelevant, many are very vague, often require evidence that is time consuming to put together. Next week I have a release that I have to put a change ticket in for - another 50 boxes with questions and combos. I'm ready to quit. Don't let checklists turn your company into a bureaucratic hell hole.

Defense?

Re: The Simple Genius of Checklists

#14

Post by nobrains » Thu, Jun 27, 2019, 1:17 PM UTC

rb808 wrote: post #12

I hate checklists. I've just done an information security checklist at work, 200 questions, lots of them irrelevant, many are very vague, often require evidence that is time consuming to put together. Next week I have a release that I have to put a change ticket in for - another 50 boxes with questions and combos. I'm ready to quit. Don't let checklists turn your company into a bureaucratic hell hole.

That sounds like a bad checklist.

Some improvements that can be done:

1. Divide the checklist into "required", "lower priority" and "optional" sections. Will help in just focusing on "required" for time critical implementations, and tackle the rest later if needed.

2. Eliminate requiring evidence and start trusting. If trust is broken (found via audit) then take action. Don't penalize everyone for the mistakes of a few.

3. Add examples for vague cases. Having pre-polulated dropdowns are better than open ended questions. Just add a comments column / field if needed.

4. 200 questions? Seems like overkill. And if all are necessary, then make sure management knows the time that it will take to fill, verify, rectify and submit that sheet.

Re: The Simple Genius of Checklists

#15

Post by epalm » Thu, Jun 27, 2019, 1:18 PM UTC

rb808 wrote: post #12

I hate checklists. I've just done an information security checklist at work, 200 questions, lots of them irrelevant, many are very vague, often require evidence that is time consuming to put together. Next week I have a release that I have to put a change ticket in for - another 50 boxes with questions and combos. I'm ready to quit. Don't let checklists turn your company into a bureaucratic hell hole.

So what you actually hate are "bad checklists".

Re: The Simple Genius of Checklists

#16

Post by efa » Thu, Jun 27, 2019, 1:49 PM UTC

I really enjoyed http://atulgawande.com/book/the-checklist-manifesto/. Very interesting and at times frustrating. You ask yourself why more hospitals can't implement success described in this book.

Re: The Simple Genius of Checklists

#17

Post by matwood » Thu, Jun 27, 2019, 1:50 PM UTC

rb808 wrote: post #12

I hate checklists. I've just done an information security checklist at work, 200 questions, lots of them irrelevant, many are very vague, often require evidence that is time consuming to put together. Next week I have a release that I have to put a change ticket in for - another 50 boxes with questions and combos. I'm ready to quit. Don't let checklists turn your company into a bureaucratic hell hole.

I would got so far to say that you're not even dealing with checklists anymore. Almost all my checklist items are yes/no. Is X done? Yes/No. Is a value between Y-Z? Yes/No. Checklists are not meant for vague questions.

Questions that irrelevant should be removed from the checklist. When things are found that have been missed, they should be added.

When used properly they do remove stress and free up mental space. If you travel a lot, making a checklist of what to pack makes it so much easier to leave the house.

Re: The Simple Genius of Checklists

#18

Post by ukj » Thu, Jun 27, 2019, 1:51 PM UTC

epalm wrote: post #15

rb808 wrote: post #12

I hate checklists. I've just done an information security checklist at work, 200 questions, lots of them irrelevant, many are very vague, often require evidence that is time consuming to put together. Next week I have a release that I have to put a change ticket in for - another 50 boxes with questions and combos. I'm ready to quit. Don't let checklists turn your company into a bureaucratic hell hole.

So what you actually hate are "bad checklists".

Do you have a good checklist for writing good checklists?

Re: The Simple Genius of Checklists

#19

Post by RyJones » Thu, Jun 27, 2019, 1:51 PM UTC

supahfly_remix wrote: post #11

ncmncm wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It took three generations of flight training for checklists to become an essential part of aviation. Note that a flight-training generation is less than a human reproductive generation; it's the time from first lesson taken to first lesson taught (plus some). It had to wait for the older instructors to retire. We are still in transition, in medicine. Many physicians have not yet cottoned to hand-washing, yet.

> Many physicians have not yet cottoned to hand-washing, yet. What?!? How many generations has it been since Louis Pasteur?

I have bad news for you. I have been seeing a lot of doctors for the last five years or so.

Two or three are absolutely fastidious about hand washing.

The rest are not.

Re: The Simple Genius of Checklists

#20

Post by memco » Thu, Jun 27, 2019, 1:55 PM UTC

rb808 wrote: post #12

I hate checklists. I've just done an information security checklist at work, 200 questions, lots of them irrelevant, many are very vague, often require evidence that is time consuming to put together. Next week I have a release that I have to put a change ticket in for - another 50 boxes with questions and combos. I'm ready to quit. Don't let checklists turn your company into a bureaucratic hell hole.

Last time checklists came up on HN someone linked to a talk by Atul Gawanda about the checklist manifesto: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfl8Xt8W09A. He differentiates good and bad checklists: sounds like those are bad checklists you’re working with. But not all checklists are bad.