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Swiss women strike for more money, time and respect

bbc.com

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Re: Swiss women strike for more money, time and respect

#11

Post by kstenerud »

kartan wrote: post #6

I see just two comments right now and I see a lot of cynism. Things are better today than in the past thanks to people fighting for their and others rights. And the job is not finished. Democracy is not something that happens once each four years. It's important to vote, but as important is to express your dissatisfaction with the wrongdoings of the system. > Ms Born, who joined a newsroom staffed entirely by men in…

> Parental leave seams such a natural right to have that it's strange that there exists any opposition to it.

There's opposition to it for a number of reasons:

1. Employers are people, and peoples first reactions to anything is almost universally selfish: "how does this negatively affect me? And why should I suffer financially for someone else's gain?"

2. Most policy makers are still men, and policy makers only decide policy based on their own experiences. If they haven't suffered from lack of maternity leave, they won't prioritize it as an issue.

Protest is a means of shaking the sleeping masses and getting your message into the public consciousness. That's how you make change happen when nobody in power is motivated to change. Once you build enough momentum, they have to change.

Re: Swiss women strike for more money, time and respect

#13

Post by kgwgk »

kartan wrote: post #6

I see just two comments right now and I see a lot of cynism. Things are better today than in the past thanks to people fighting for their and others rights. And the job is not finished. Democracy is not something that happens once each four years. It's important to vote, but as important is to express your dissatisfaction with the wrongdoings of the system. > Ms Born, who joined a newsroom staffed entirely by men in…

> Fighting for women's rights is also figthing for a more just and balance society for everyone.

What are “women’s rights”? Is parental leave for men (or non-female genders or whatever is the correct way nowadays to refer to people who are not women) one of “women’s rights”?

Re: Swiss women strike for more money, time and respect

#14

Post by DecayingOrganic »

ugqtq wrote: post #5

"stage", well said. >However, women in Switzerland still earn on average 20% less than men, they are under-represented in management positions, and childcare remains not only expensive, but in short supply. Women are less valuable? How will a strike solve this? I mean if this was true and I was a business owner I would only hire women because I could pay 20 % less. But of course that's not the way it works. Those "fa…

I believe the research in question does not speak on the grounds such as to suggest women earn 20% less for the same job vis-a-vis men, but rather claims due to women are being under-represented in a variety of high-level jobs, on average, they earn less.

And the reason may not be in the realm of misogynist inclinations depicted at high levels of government, it may be the case on average women choose professions that pay less.

We know that men are more likely to go into “nerdy” professions such as math or engineering, whereas women are more likely to go into the caring professions and to spend more time looking after children [0].

0: Geary (2010); Halpern (2012); Maccoby and Jacklin (1974)

Re: Swiss women strike for more money, time and respect

#15

Post by mlang23 »

Absolute equality is not realistic. People are not equal, individuals are different from eachother. And I say that as someone belonging to a minority group. However, I am convinced that equality can not be forced. Differences are what make us interesting. And yes, there are differences between the sexes, no matter how you twist and/or turn it. Trying to ignore those is unrealistic and a fair bit naive.

Re: Swiss women strike for more money, time and respect

#16

Post by colechristensen »

s9w wrote: post #9

> Swiss women's pensions are 37% lower than men's, primarily because women take time out from work to raise their children

Is this right or wrong?

I am all for taking parental leave supported with full pay and benefits for a good long time, but is there a point where that support stops? Six months? A year? Two?

It's not for everyone but some people will exit the work force for years for family. I don't think it is surprising or discrimination to expect there to be a gender bias in people making that decision. Those people are included in statistics.

Is it right to expect that choice to have financial consequences or do we want to fully financially support that decision for some as a society and make it a money neutral decision?

Re: Swiss women strike for more money, time and respect

#17

Post by ugqtq »

DecayingOrganic wrote: post #14
ugqtq wrote: post #5

"stage", well said. >However, women in Switzerland still earn on average 20% less than men, they are under-represented in management positions, and childcare remains not only expensive, but in short supply. Women are less valuable? How will a strike solve this? I mean if this was true and I was a business owner I would only hire women because I could pay 20 % less. But of course that's not the way it works. Those "fa…

I believe the research in question does not speak on the grounds such as to suggest women earn 20% less for the same job vis-a-vis men, but rather claims due to women are being under-represented in a variety of high-level jobs, on average, they earn less. And the reason may not be in the realm of misogynist inclinations depicted at high levels of government, it may be the case on average women choose professions that…

Do men and women have the same level of education and have they chosen the same career paths in average? If they haven't then that 20 % is meaningless. As far as I know men and women can choose to get the degrees that they want and can choose to pursue the careers that they want. If they haven't chosen to do so what do they expect?

Ah I see you edited. Yes that was exactly my point. If they expect to get the same money for nursing that you can get for designing rockets then that's basically Communism.

Re: Swiss women strike for more money, time and respect

#18

Post by kstenerud »

s9w wrote: post #9

> Swiss women's pensions are 37% lower than men's, primarily because women take time out from work to raise their children

And in a world where you can't both live off the man's income anymore, that's completely unfair.

Forcing people to trade their future income and security to raise kids is terrible.

Re: Swiss women strike for more money, time and respect

#19

Post by smackay »

Context is always important. Switzerland still has conscription in to the military and the culture that comes with it is very strong and male dominated - though it's importance has lessened somewhat.

Switzerland is a modern country and many have the same liberal values we all know but there appears to be a sizeable proportion which regard women for their, shall we say, utilitarian value and little else.

Given this backdrop, this strike shows that while there has been progress there is still a long way to go. Comparisons with the situation in other countries is a little unfair.

Re: Swiss women strike for more money, time and respect

#20

Post by wizzairflyer »

kstenerud wrote: post #11
kartan wrote: post #6

I see just two comments right now and I see a lot of cynism. Things are better today than in the past thanks to people fighting for their and others rights. And the job is not finished. Democracy is not something that happens once each four years. It's important to vote, but as important is to express your dissatisfaction with the wrongdoings of the system. > Ms Born, who joined a newsroom staffed entirely by men in…

> Parental leave seams such a natural right to have that it's strange that there exists any opposition to it. There's opposition to it for a number of reasons: 1. Employers are people, and peoples first reactions to anything is almost universally selfish: "how does this negatively affect me? And why should I suffer financially for someone else's gain?" 2. Most policy makers are still men, and policy makers only decid…

During the maternity leave it is not the employer that is paying the salary of the mother (at least in Switzerland, and I assume it is the same in most if not all countries with a mandatory maternity leave), but the state. So the employer isn't paying someone to do nothing.

He also has enough time to plan the replacement since the leave can be announce 6 months or so in advance.

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