Live data from Hacker News

‘Limbic Capitalism’ Preys on Our Addicted Brains

quillette.com

11–20 of 91 posts

Re: ‘Limbic Capitalism’ Preys on Our Addicted Brains

#11
post #8

How do we differentiate from a compelling and effective form of entertainment with an addictive activity? Most people wouldn't look down on someone who stays up till 3 AM reading a gripping book, but many would if we swap the book with a video game. Definitely people who can't hold down jobs or education due to addition to video games or social media is a problem, but I suspect that a lot of the concern is due to an…

>ow do we differentiate from a compelling and effective form of entertainment with an addictive activity?

Just like we have always done, if something constantly disturbs day to day activities, then it is an addictive behaviour

>That is, the addictive behavior “spills over” into several dimensions of one’s daily life

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3210595/

_______

>What I do think is a problem is the fact that we have much better data collection on how people use video games and internet services

I think this doesnt get to the core of the issue, and that's that, humans have always sought better and more efficient ways to get enjoyment out of things, people would infuse their rectums with alcohol way back in Egyptian times to get a stronger alcohol "high".

The difference between lets say, 1980's arcades and modern mobile games is simply the tools available, the aim is the same. Only now we can do it faster with A/B testing, with the knowledge of Skinner boxes, etc

Having worked in GameDev, one of the most flooring things I have faced is people asking me for me to introduce said addictive inducing systems and mechanisms.... They want the enjoyment, they want to be "addicted", they want a game "so good" that they can't put it down.

And when it comes to what you mention of the metrics, yeah, 100%, modern digital era metrics are all based in the so called "Attention Economy", specially for social platforms, in the case of Netflix or Fortnite, their biggest competitors are people actually working, or asinine things like taking a walk, cooking, spending time with family, etc. We are in a race to the bottom for people's attentions and lives, HackerNews itself is yet another Skinnerbox for those that enjoy learning things. Reddit, Twitter, Youtube they all are designed to be addictive, Limbic Capitalism, and to not do so would mean that said platforms would lose in the free market against others that did employ said tactics...

We are optimizing for human pleasure, yet what happens when said pleasure is actually a potential enemy?

Re: ‘Limbic Capitalism’ Preys on Our Addicted Brains

#12
post #8

How do we differentiate from a compelling and effective form of entertainment with an addictive activity? Most people wouldn't look down on someone who stays up till 3 AM reading a gripping book, but many would if we swap the book with a video game. Definitely people who can't hold down jobs or education due to addition to video games or social media is a problem, but I suspect that a lot of the concern is due to an…

> much better data collection on how people use video games and internet services [...] people optimize for overall time used instead of the quality of the experience

That's it. There is a lot of data about people's habits, and that enables companies to tune digital products right into people's gratification systems. It's a psychological hack. Even when you're aware of it, it's hard to resist video games / facebook / twitter / hackernews cravings.

But these addiction issues are being talked about more, and people are becoming more aware and starting to self-control, so I don't think a catastrophic mind-control scenario will happen soon (except in dictatorships like China, but that's another story).

Re: ‘Limbic Capitalism’ Preys on Our Addicted Brains

#13
post #8

How do we differentiate from a compelling and effective form of entertainment with an addictive activity? Most people wouldn't look down on someone who stays up till 3 AM reading a gripping book, but many would if we swap the book with a video game. Definitely people who can't hold down jobs or education due to addition to video games or social media is a problem, but I suspect that a lot of the concern is due to an…

>ow do we differentiate from a compelling and effective form of entertainment with an addictive activity? Just like we have always done, if something constantly disturbs day to day activities, then it is an addictive behaviour >That is, the addictive behavior “spills over” into several dimensions of one’s daily life https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3210595/ _______ >What I do think is a problem is the fac…

> Having worked in GameDev, one of the most flooring things I have faced is people asking me for me to introduce said addictive inducing systems and mechanisms.... They want the enjoyment, they want to be "addicted", they want a game "so good" that they can't put it down.

This is what I'm talking about though. Back when games were bought on a disk or cartridge and didn't feature any sort of micro-transactions there was no point in making a game addictive. It didn't matter if players played the game for 2 hours or 200 hours. All that mattered is that the game was good so that people enjoyed it, became popular, and sold well. In some sense, getting players addicted to any one game might actually be undesirable as it would reduce willingness to pay for subsequent games.

Nowadays, so many games are trying to be "lifestyle games" that are meant to be continuously consumed instead of played through once or twice.

Re: ‘Limbic Capitalism’ Preys on Our Addicted Brains

#14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>ow do we differentiate from a compelling and effective form of entertainment with an addictive activity? Just like we have always done, if something constantly disturbs day to day activities, then it is an addictive behaviour >That is, the addictive behavior “spills over” into several dimensions of one’s daily life https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3210595/ _______ >What I do think is a problem is the fac…

> Having worked in GameDev, one of the most flooring things I have faced is people asking me for me to introduce said addictive inducing systems and mechanisms.... They want the enjoyment, they want to be "addicted", they want a game "so good" that they can't put it down. This is what I'm talking about though. Back when games were bought on a disk or cartridge and didn't feature any sort of micro-transactions there w…

> there was no point in making a game addictive.

This is what you are missing, they were already addictive, it was only not a wide spread thing because games in general didn't had mass appeal back then, it was a niche thing that could be ignored by the broader population.

There's a quasi-infinite amount of stories of people becoming addicted to playing StarCraft Broodwar, and that game came in 1998, same with Quake, Counter Strike, Age of Empires.

Yes, it is true that said games have become multiplied, but said games are simply filling what people ask for.... As I stated in my previous comment, people want this, they want the addictive parts of said games, and Capitalism will always be happy to provide...

Also, what you mention of "games that can be played once or twice", I think that you are seriously misunderstanding the situation, Go has been played for thousands of years, same with Chess, compact self contained games with campaigns are actually something quite modern, the standard has been for games to be multiplayer.

The games that usually destroy people's lives are those that have social or competitive roots, and it is because we as humans are intrinsically tied to our relations, ego, personal achievement, etc. "Addictive games" are not something external to the individual, but they use the individual itself.

Lastly, the very reason why StarCraft, Age of Empires, Counter Strike/Half Life, Quake all sold so well early on is exactly because they were addictive/enjoyable. Had they not been then they wouldnt have

________

Quick question to all HN's; Is Dark Souls "Addictive"?

Re: ‘Limbic Capitalism’ Preys on Our Addicted Brains

#15
I've been thinking about this a lot. In terms of political economy, there's a lot of reliance on the ideas of information, free will and rationality.

To cut a long story short, if people have information about the market, they can use their knowledge of their own desires to act, which creates some sort of efficiency. Glossing over a load of stuff here because it's a large subject, but that's sort of the spiel you get when people are talking about all sorts of political/economic decisions. And you can generate both leftie and rightie policies depending on how you think about things.

The problem is if deciding things depends on free will and information, what do we do when it seems there are exceptions? I'll leave aside information problems since we're more talking about rationality.

But if it turns out people can know what WoW does to your studies, and they still end up doing this, how should we think about this? Easy answer is that their real desire is to play WoW all day, but that doesn't seem very satisfying. If they're making an irrational decision, that has other consequences on our society.

For instance, a whole load of behaviours need to be controlled. Obvious things like smoking and drugs, but what about overeating? Too much soda? Social media? And what exactly is the correct policy response to irrational behaviour? Keep in mind solutions like taxes/subsidies also rely on rationality.

Re: ‘Limbic Capitalism’ Preys on Our Addicted Brains

#16
post #7

Should we include weed and booze in this as well?

Probably not weed, and definitely not alcohol. Chemical addiction is a physiological phenomenon. Behavior addictions are psychological.

I agree with your later sentences, but I have doubts that it implies the former. It's possible you have no physiological addiction to alcohol but you do have an addictive behaviour that involves alcohol.

Re: ‘Limbic Capitalism’ Preys on Our Addicted Brains

#18

I've been thinking about this a lot. In terms of political economy, there's a lot of reliance on the ideas of information, free will and rationality. To cut a long story short, if people have information about the market, they can use their knowledge of their own desires to act, which creates some sort of efficiency. Glossing over a load of stuff here because it's a large subject, but that's sort of the spiel you get…

Our entire idea of "agency", "individuality" and even "freedom" needs to be re-thinked. Basically all of what we have built resides in one way or another on the idea that individuals bar exceptions such as with physical drugs have some sort of inalienable agency to them. That entire rockbed is simply not really true, and more like highly idealized thoughts from thinkers of the 1800's

Policy makers and politicians have been struggling with these problems for the last +150 years, and increasingly so in the last 30 ever since the creation of political microtargetting and the perfection of advertising, cambridge analytica and digital microtargetting+psychographics is just the cherry on top

Planet Money released an episode touching on all of these subjects "Ep 915 How to meddle in an election"

https://www.npr.org/2019/05/24/726536757/episode-915-how-to-...

Also, anybody that hasn't should absolutely watch "Century of the self" by Adam Curtis

Re: ‘Limbic Capitalism’ Preys on Our Addicted Brains

#19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>ow do we differentiate from a compelling and effective form of entertainment with an addictive activity? Just like we have always done, if something constantly disturbs day to day activities, then it is an addictive behaviour >That is, the addictive behavior “spills over” into several dimensions of one’s daily life https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3210595/ _______ >What I do think is a problem is the fac…

> Having worked in GameDev, one of the most flooring things I have faced is people asking me for me to introduce said addictive inducing systems and mechanisms.... They want the enjoyment, they want to be "addicted", they want a game "so good" that they can't put it down. This is what I'm talking about though. Back when games were bought on a disk or cartridge and didn't feature any sort of micro-transactions there w…

Not only were games addictive back then, but they were explicitly advertised as such and it was considered a good thing. Being addictive was the mark of a good game!

Re: ‘Limbic Capitalism’ Preys on Our Addicted Brains

#20

I've been thinking about this a lot. In terms of political economy, there's a lot of reliance on the ideas of information, free will and rationality. To cut a long story short, if people have information about the market, they can use their knowledge of their own desires to act, which creates some sort of efficiency. Glossing over a load of stuff here because it's a large subject, but that's sort of the spiel you get…

>if it turns out people can know what WoW does to your studies, and they still end up doing this, how should we think about this? Easy answer is that their real desire is to play WoW all day, but that doesn't seem very satisfying.

It's also wrong, as it makes people unhappy. The whole idea of a real free will breaks down if we are looking at substance abuse at the latest. The underlying machinery of our brains limits the rationality of our decisions, and ultimately the freedom of our will.

I am afflicted with ADHD and know this first-hand. I still managed to get an education and a qualified job in software, but for years I hated myself for not being able to simply do tasks at hand. Libertarians would say I value goof-off time on reddit more than a steady job, but that's not true, in fact I would be a happier person if the internet just vanished or I finally got my procrastination under control.

Post reply on HN