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Abdication, Succession and Japan’s Imperial Future: An Emperor’s Dilemma

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Re: Abdication, Succession and Japan’s Imperial Future: An Emperor’s Dilemma

#11

Post by Lazare »

a_t48 wrote: post #8

> There is, after all, ample precedent for this: women have succeeded to the throne on ten previous occasions > [When this comes to pass,] the emperor system, which depends on an unbroken line of male heirs, will collapse. These two statements seem to be in conflict.

Not exactly; notice the following passage:

> What is striking is that 74% have no objection to the offspring of a woman emperor succeeding to the throne. If this were to happen, it would be an historical first.

Women have succeeded to the throne, but they have been succeeded in turn by offspring of an earlier male emperor. Every emperor (in theory) has been able to trace their ancestry back to the sun goddess through the paternal line.

Tracing ancestry through the maternal line as well would be a significant change.

Re: Abdication, Succession and Japan’s Imperial Future: An Emperor’s Dilemma

#12

Post by Lazare »

option wrote: post #2

its 2019 and people in developed countries still care about (and support with their taxes) kings, queens, emperors and such?!

You're very well aware this occurs. Are you trying to ask why, or to make some social commentary, or were you just deploying snark?

Re: Abdication, Succession and Japan’s Imperial Future: An Emperor’s Dilemma

#13

Post by taneq »

Lazare wrote: post #11
a_t48 wrote: post #8

> There is, after all, ample precedent for this: women have succeeded to the throne on ten previous occasions > [When this comes to pass,] the emperor system, which depends on an unbroken line of male heirs, will collapse. These two statements seem to be in conflict.

Not exactly; notice the following passage: > What is striking is that 74% have no objection to the offspring of a woman emperor succeeding to the throne. If this were to happen, it would be an historical first. Women have succeeded to the throne, but they have been succeeded in turn by offspring of an earlier male emperor. Every emperor (in theory) has been able to trace their ancestry back to the sun goddess through…

> sun goddess

> paternal line

Hmmm.

I mean, I guess it depends whether you count her sons as the first generation or not, but still, why would deity-ness (is there a better word for this? Deism?) pass from her to her sons and thence only to their sons?

Re: Abdication, Succession and Japan’s Imperial Future: An Emperor’s Dilemma

#14

Post by nine_k »

rayiner wrote: post #7
nine_k wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would be shocked to learn how much people willingly donate to churches, temples, cults, and other strictly irrational enterprises. Kings and emperors are a very inexpensive symbolic flourish on top of that — and many of them do a reasonable job of unifying a nation.

I think you mean “partly” rather than “strictly.” Even if you remove the supernatural element (the part that calls for faith, which is not rational), you’re still left with a political, philosophical, and moral framework. Such frameworks aren’t irrational any more than say “social democracy” as a political framework is irrational. The you have the utilitarian social functions. Serving as places for members of the com…

A political or philosophical framework needs not be rational to be efficient and useful.

The very idea of love (especially as in 2Cor13) is quite irrational, still it worked, and moved a lot of people over millennia.

Re: Abdication, Succession and Japan’s Imperial Future: An Emperor’s Dilemma

#15

Post by cataphract »

nine_k wrote: post #3
option wrote: post #2

its 2019 and people in developed countries still care about (and support with their taxes) kings, queens, emperors and such?!

You would be shocked to learn how much people willingly donate to churches, temples, cults, and other strictly irrational enterprises. Kings and emperors are a very inexpensive symbolic flourish on top of that — and many of them do a reasonable job of unifying a nation.

I'd rather have a city full of churches/mosques/temples, which are at least generally interesting public use buildings, than a skyline dominated by glass towers occupied by banks, insurance and consulting companies.

And anyway at least as far as the Catholic church is concerned, most money ends up in social causes.

Re: Abdication, Succession and Japan’s Imperial Future: An Emperor’s Dilemma

#16

Post by mensetmanusman »

chrisseaton wrote: post #10
option wrote: post #2

its 2019 and people in developed countries still care about (and support with their taxes) kings, queens, emperors and such?!

In the UK I think about 70% of people support the Queen, our head of state. How many people in the US support their head of state? Less than 50%. In practice, it seems to work well for us. We get a representative that most people support. The US republic fails to do that and their representative is always deeply divisive.

The US president has a higher % of support than prime ministers in most EU countries due to the nature of the two party system. E.g. Trump has higher approval ratings than Macron amongst the relative populations. Each system has advantages/disadvantages.

Re: Abdication, Succession and Japan’s Imperial Future: An Emperor’s Dilemma

#17

Post by fenomas »

a_t48 wrote: post #8

> There is, after all, ample precedent for this: women have succeeded to the throne on ten previous occasions > [When this comes to pass,] the emperor system, which depends on an unbroken line of male heirs, will collapse. These two statements seem to be in conflict.

Per wikipedia it's a patrilineal system, where women are eligible to succeed to the throne but their children aren't. So there have been empresses, but the imperial line itself is still (ostensibly) an unbroken series of male heirs.

> On some occasions [of a reigning empress], the direct male heir was only a toddler and unable to perform the imperial rituals. In such an instance, his mother, aunt or elder sister, if also of Imperial lineage through her patriline, temporarily took over the throne until the child came to puberty, which was deemed sufficient for a boy's accession. An empress' offspring also did not have claim to the throne from the said maternal lineage, so assigning a female to the throne had the convenient effect of postponing succession disputes.

Re: Abdication, Succession and Japan’s Imperial Future: An Emperor’s Dilemma

#18

Post by option »

chrisseaton wrote: post #10
option wrote: post #2

its 2019 and people in developed countries still care about (and support with their taxes) kings, queens, emperors and such?!

In the UK I think about 70% of people support the Queen, our head of state. How many people in the US support their head of state? Less than 50%. In practice, it seems to work well for us. We get a representative that most people support. The US republic fails to do that and their representative is always deeply divisive.

The queen is not your representative, but you are all her “subjects”. She is literally above the law and is thus, by law, some kind of “higher” human than others, which is hilarious.

I actually respect your current queen, Elizabeth 2, a person - she is doing great given the situation she was born into. But I despise royals as an institution of power and priveledge.

Re: Abdication, Succession and Japan’s Imperial Future: An Emperor’s Dilemma

#19

Post by TomMckenny »

sdrothrock wrote: post #9
option wrote: post #2

its 2019 and people in developed countries still care about (and support with their taxes) kings, queens, emperors and such?!

It's 2019 and people still like to mock cultures and traditions blindly. The article does a pretty good job of explaining a lot of the situation in a grounded, rational way -- especially concerns over the uses and potential abuses of taxpayer money. The US essentially deifies the Founding Fathers even though we're living in a world with influences and technologies they could never have anticipated. Why is it ok care…

I'd say the grand parent view comes from an uneasiness at anything hereditary, although there's much less objection to hereditary wealth for some reason.

So I'd say it comes from a dichotomy between hereditary wealth and hereditary power, although it's well known that monarchs in democracies are tightly constrained while hereditary wealth brings hereditary power.

It might be the inevitable tie between monarchy and religion which creates a de facto most "correct" national religion. Along with the occasional claim that mythical origins are literally true.

And while comforting, historical and even stabilizing at the moment, it's worth noting that a great many monarchs were quick to join the wrong side of history in WWII.

So, for those without a monarch and the attendant enthusiasm, the institution looks like an extremely expensive and potentially dangerous embodiment of unfairness. Without commenting on the correctness of this view, one can see how it would make monarchies and monarchists incomprehensible to outsiders.

Re: Abdication, Succession and Japan’s Imperial Future: An Emperor’s Dilemma

#20

Post by option »

sdrothrock wrote: post #9
option wrote: post #2

its 2019 and people in developed countries still care about (and support with their taxes) kings, queens, emperors and such?!

It's 2019 and people still like to mock cultures and traditions blindly. The article does a pretty good job of explaining a lot of the situation in a grounded, rational way -- especially concerns over the uses and potential abuses of taxpayer money. The US essentially deifies the Founding Fathers even though we're living in a world with influences and technologies they could never have anticipated. Why is it ok care…

Some cultures do need to be mocked. Obvious example - women should be treated equal to men, whatever your culture is.

The developed world has some aspects which should be mocked too and monarchy is one of them.

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