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Some Writing Advice: Don’t Take Others’ Advice

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Re: Some Writing Advice: Don’t Take Others’ Advice

#11
post #2

I’d add to this that most “How to write” or “style guide” books aren’t useful. They can help you to turn really bad prose into serviceable prose, but they can’t make you a good writer. For that you need to spend thousands of hours reading the work of expert writers. If you read a style guide like Strunk and White, you’ll come across a lot of nonsense. A particular bugbear of mine is the prohibition against passives,…

> "They can help you to turn really bad prose into serviceable prose,"

Which is very often exactly what people are after! People who aren't deluding themselves don't think they're going to win any Pulitzers, they just want a marginal improvement as a courtesy to others who will have to read it. If a style guide can elevate their writing to mundane levels, then it has done it's job.

Re: Some Writing Advice: Don’t Take Others’ Advice

#12
This seems overly reactionary. Writing is hard, and specific, and the devil is always in the details as it relates to a person, so it's almost nonsensical to give generally applicable writing advice. But, I don't think that makes it impossible to give advice as it pertains to a particular style.

I've found that if you want to be a good writer, you need interesting material to draw from. That can come from your imagination, your lived experiences, other material you've read, or most likely all of the above, but you're engaging in world building first and foremost. I particularly like this Faulkner quote:

“I would say to get the character in your mind. Once he is in your mind, and he is right, and he’s true, then he does the work himself. All you need to do then is to trot along behind him and put down what he does and what he says. It’s the ingestion and then the gestation. You’ve got to know the character. You’ve got to believe in him. You’ve got to feel that he is alive, and then, of course, you will have to do a certain amount of picking and choosing among the possibilities of his action, so that his actions fit the character which you believe in. After that, the business of putting him down on paper is mechanical. Most of the the writing has got to take place up here before you ever put the pencil to the paper. But the character’s got to be true by your conception and by your experience, and that would include, as we’ve just said, what you’ve read, what you’ve imagined, what you’ve heard, all that going to giving you the gauge to measure this imaginary character by, and once he comes alive and true to you, and he’s important and moving, then it’s not too much trouble to put him down.”

Re: Some Writing Advice: Don’t Take Others’ Advice

#13
I think "don't take other's advice" is just good advice in general, or at the very least "be skeptical of other's advice". I work in academic science where a lot of people of varying career stages are squished together in close proximity, and I encounter many situations where inexperienced and not that successful people are way too willing to shower even less experienced people with advice on how to live/do things. This seems to be the most common with graduate students talking to slightly newer graduate students. It's self-affirming for most people to give instructions and feel like they are being listened to, and I too often see this impulse outweighing the idea of the advice actually being useful.

For me personally, two things that determine if somebody is in a position to give me advice are:

1)Are they enjoying a level of success that I would like to achieve? 2)Is the environment in which they achieved success comparable to my own?

Re: Some Writing Advice: Don’t Take Others’ Advice

#14
post #4
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the US government’s “plain language” site has examples showing that changing passive to active can definitely improve texts, like here: https://www.plainlanguage.gov/examples/before-and-after/empl...

Passives are an information structuring tool that writers use to control how information is presented in a sentence. They can be used well or they can be poorly. For example, on the page you linked to the first line of the body text reads: > This example was created for training and is not official agency text. The first clause of that sentence is in the passive voice — “was created” — and is a good example of how pa…

IMO which of those works better is a function of the overall tone of the piece.

The passive version probably fits better in a Howto or manual that is focused on just communicating information in a neutral just-the-facts way.

The active version fits better with a style that's going for something more conversational.

Re: Some Writing Advice: Don’t Take Others’ Advice

#15
post #9
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the US government’s “plain language” site has examples showing that changing passive to active can definitely improve texts, like here: https://www.plainlanguage.gov/examples/before-and-after/empl...

There are cases where eliminating passive voice can improve things. In a lot of the example cases I've seen in such guides, however, the examples are somewhat straw-man sentences that don't have so much to do with passive vs active. I also agree with the grand-parent that as writing advice for literature it's bad advice. I'd also like to state that passives are a tool, and like any tool they can be and are misused. I…

It shifts the focus from the outcome to the action that a specific individual took.

Which, as you suggest, may or may not be what you want.

"Mistakes were made" types of construction are widely (and properly) mocked in many cases because they're viewed as evading responsibility. However, there are cases--such as having a post mortem of some sort--where you really do want to focus on what happened and how it could have been prevented rather "Joe kicked the power cord out."

Re: Some Writing Advice: Don’t Take Others’ Advice

#16
post #13

I think "don't take other's advice" is just good advice in general, or at the very least "be skeptical of other's advice". I work in academic science where a lot of people of varying career stages are squished together in close proximity, and I encounter many situations where inexperienced and not that successful people are way too willing to shower even less experienced people with advice on how to live/do things. T…

Other people’s advice is generally useless, mostly because you aren’t them. You’re facing a different set of circumstances while in possession of a different set of resources.

Other people’s stories however are almost always useful in some way, though not always in the way they intend.

Re: Some Writing Advice: Don’t Take Others’ Advice

#17
Here was my stream of consciousness take on how to be a better writer, that became a popular Quora answer awhile ago:

1. Read, read, read, read, read, read. Everyone else said this also because it's true. But not just anything, read various styles of writing, and create a basic taxonomy of styles of writing that you can refer to mentally, in a mindset that's more like concentrated practice than just breezy reading. Pay attention to structure, tone, form, use of (or wilful disregard for) grammar, and cadences, etc.

2. Learn how to break down basic sentence structure. Know what a gerund phrase and subordinate clause are, or a sentence splice. You can ignore the "rules" but you need to know them.

3. Clarification to #2 that's the most important: identify instinctively the subject, verb, and object of your sentences. Every sentence has 'em, at least subject and verb. This isn't a firm rule but there's an excellent chance that your sentence's perceived meaning hinges on them, no matter how complicated. That last sentence by the way was "there" "is" and "chance" mind you, not the thing that looks like a sentence and follows the word "that." Now that you know what they are exploit them. Chances are there's a better verb than variations on "to be" like "is" "was" "has been" to be had, for one example.

4. Write. But don't just write whatever comes to mind (though you should do that too): write to form. Now that you're being observant of how certain styles are structured and their conventions you can try for yourself. Attempt to mimic the way certain kinds of prose are written.

Here are a few examples of the same thing in various styles picked at random:

"Triangle" - straight news format aka New York Times or AP style

> Wilson Phillips, an internet user from Skokie, Illinois, visited the popular online site Quora today in an attempt to learn how to write. In a visit Mr. Phillips described as "disturbing," site contributors were alleged to have committed several acts of hostility, including accusations he was an disgruntled former employee of Myspace, a claim Mr. Phillips denies.

"Time Magazine" - famous backwards construction used in features

> The clicks on the keyboard started out even, but soon picked up in speed. As comments were added, tempers flared. A voice rang out. "They should be so lucky as to work for Rupert!" it said, as minutes became hours. Broad daylight gave way to a dim monitor glow, and a grim realization took hold. It was almost midnight, and Wilson's secret was out.

"Gawker" - ie snarky news/blog style

> It looks like Wilson won't be getting off this island any time soon. Sources tell us the ex social-ite had a run in with the valley mafia late last night on Quora, which is quickly turning from a minor Mike Arrington masturbatory obsession into a digital mob.

"Gonzo" - Hunter S. Thompson, the master

> They're a vile bunch, mean on a good day and as vicious as a badger when cornered. And to them Wilson was prey. A life and reputation torn into meat and bone, the bastard never had a chance. Of course for predators that's the price of a meal, and he wasn't even the first that day.

The details matter. Ask most people to write the first sentence of a story about a run of the mill news event like a house fire and they'll probably do something like "A house on Main Street burned down today" when in real life those stories usually come at the news sideways. For example: "Broken windows and car alarms were among the unpleasant sights this morning at the site of a residential blaze that claimed three downtown homes".

And so on... you get the point. And that's just journalism; do the same with modern fiction, magical realism, classic literature, your favorite writers, etc. Once you can separate style from subject you have a set of tools that can evoke a mood. Like a musician practices ear training to identify pitch or major from minor keys you should know the mechanics that underpin a certain feel or tone, and use them, even when you forget you're using any style and just have your own voice.

Re: Some Writing Advice: Don’t Take Others’ Advice

#19
post #13

I think "don't take other's advice" is just good advice in general, or at the very least "be skeptical of other's advice". I work in academic science where a lot of people of varying career stages are squished together in close proximity, and I encounter many situations where inexperienced and not that successful people are way too willing to shower even less experienced people with advice on how to live/do things. T…

Depends on the advice. I'll definitely listen to advice from my wife on how to handle certain social situations because she is pretty good at giving advice to navigate social psychological situations.

Re: Some Writing Advice: Don’t Take Others’ Advice

#20
The article is entirely about work patterns; when and where to write, and how to find motivation to do so. For that kind of thing, the advice "find what works for you" is better advice than "do what works for me". (Although the latter advice still often helps.)

But writing advice is another thing entirely. Learning to think about your audience while writing is every bit as amenable to advice as learning to think about the processor's branch prediction while coding. Advice like "form a chain from stress position to topic position" (https://www.americanscientist.org/blog/the-long-view/the-sci...), or the "arcs of coherence" from Steven Pinker's The Sense of Style. Human perception processes language in understood ways. Conforming to those expectations requires learning from advice.

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