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Singapore Urges U.S. to Accept China's Rise, Spare Other Nations

bloomberg.com

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Re: Singapore Urges U.S. to Accept China's Rise, Spare Other Nations

#11

Post by londons_explore »

product50 wrote: post #10

Isn't the ball in China's court here? I am not sure what is the expectation of US in this. China has a completely closed market while at the same time they are reaping the benefits of selling in markets of other countries with no penalties. How is that fair? Also, they force companies to share their technologies/IP if they are interested in coming into Chinese markets - and then they just steal it to undercut the for…

They aren't stopping other countries doing the same.

The world might be a better place if everyone stole and remixed IP

Re: Singapore Urges U.S. to Accept China's Rise, Spare Other Nations

#12

Post by coldtea »

Barrin92 wrote: post #8
rgbrenner wrote: post #5

China is highly unlikely to undermine the U.S.-led global system given it has been one of its biggest beneficiaries, Balakrishnan said. They undermine it every day they refuse to allow free trade. The US and others spent a lot of resources building the free trade system of the world... and China wants the benefits of selling into that global market, while reserving their own market for themselves. Every day they are…

As Milton Friedman has pointed out, the loser of protectionist policies are the countries that practice them. If China wants to subsidize its industries and sell Americans cheap goods then that is primarily an issue for the Chinese people, not for American consumers. Absorbing global manufacturing has made Americans the richest people with the highest purchasing power on the planet, has subjected American companies t…

>As Milton Friedman has pointed out, the loser of protectionist policies are the countries that practice them.

Milton Friedman says that because he's a policy advisor of countries that benefit from others dropping their protectionist policies.

At a certain state of development (and when you are not yet top dog to dictate what "free" trade means to other countries), you need some well balanced protectionist policies. The US itself rose thanks to its protectionist policies. Britain too -- as did all others major powers when it served them well.

"Britain was the first country to successfully use a large-scale infant industry promotion strategy. However, its most ardent user was the U.S.; the economic historian Paul Bairoch once called it "the homeland and bastion of modern protectionism"

Re: Singapore Urges U.S. to Accept China's Rise, Spare Other Nations

#13

Post by calf »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #4
chewz wrote: post #3

> we also want China to be able to assume its rightful place as it develops and becomes a superpower in its own right, Singapore economy is depending on trade and prolonged trade war will ruin Singapore with its unsustainable debt. But how does China 'assuming its rightful place' should look in practical terms? Withdrawing US fleets from Pacific? Allowing East Asia to become China's vasal teritory? Tolerating growing…

> But how does China 'assuming its rightful place' should look in practical terms? > Allowing East Asia to become China's vassal territory? Sure, in much the same way that it was in the past, and in much the same way that all of North and South America are vassals to the United States. It is not realistic for East and even Southeast Asian countries to care more about what the US thinks than what China thinks; I don't…

It's easy to understand if you agree that US hypocrisy is crucially protected by manufactured consent and propaganda. Most people fall in two categories, either a) not heard of Chomsky, or b) think he's wrong.

Re: Singapore Urges U.S. to Accept China's Rise, Spare Other Nations

#14

Post by coldtea »

rgbrenner wrote: post #5

China is highly unlikely to undermine the U.S.-led global system given it has been one of its biggest beneficiaries, Balakrishnan said. They undermine it every day they refuse to allow free trade. The US and others spent a lot of resources building the free trade system of the world... and China wants the benefits of selling into that global market, while reserving their own market for themselves. Every day they are…

>They undermine it every day they refuse to allow free trade. The US and others spent a lot of resources building the free trade system of the world...

I.e. the kind of trade that they dictate and call "free", creating banana republics that cut them special deals, toppling governments when they don't like their decisions, using humanitarian and development funding (even from supposedly independent sources, like the IMF) as bribes and pressure to secure special treatment , insisting on the dollar being used in major trade as opposed to the euro or the yuan (and punishing those states that make the opposite "free" decision), getting their hands on oil producing countries, and so on.

And of course using protectionism whenever they like for themselves ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protectionism_in_the_United_St... ).

Some free trade...

Re: Singapore Urges U.S. to Accept China's Rise, Spare Other Nations

#15

Post by londons_explore »

zaphirplane wrote: post #9
thaumasiotes wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But how does China 'assuming its rightful place' should look in practical terms? > Allowing East Asia to become China's vassal territory? Sure, in much the same way that it was in the past, and in much the same way that all of North and South America are vassals to the United States. It is not realistic for East and even Southeast Asian countries to care more about what the US thinks than what China thinks; I don't…

South America is not a US vassals. Some of the tiny countries that were invaded have strong dependency on the US. But Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Peru, Mexico, Venezuela I struggle to believe they are. Where ever did you get that idea from

Look at places holding US debt to identify vasal States.

The debt is what defends the state. A coup or military takeover and that debt won't get repaid, so there is financial incentives for the US to intervene.

Re: Singapore Urges U.S. to Accept China's Rise, Spare Other Nations

#16

Post by PunchTornado »

product50 wrote: post #10

Isn't the ball in China's court here? I am not sure what is the expectation of US in this. China has a completely closed market while at the same time they are reaping the benefits of selling in markets of other countries with no penalties. How is that fair? Also, they force companies to share their technologies/IP if they are interested in coming into Chinese markets - and then they just steal it to undercut the for…

how is china a closed market? germany sells plenty of cars there...

Re: Singapore Urges U.S. to Accept China's Rise, Spare Other Nations

#17

Post by Barrin92 »

coldtea wrote: post #12
Barrin92 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As Milton Friedman has pointed out, the loser of protectionist policies are the countries that practice them. If China wants to subsidize its industries and sell Americans cheap goods then that is primarily an issue for the Chinese people, not for American consumers. Absorbing global manufacturing has made Americans the richest people with the highest purchasing power on the planet, has subjected American companies t…

> As Milton Friedman has pointed out, the loser of protectionist policies are the countries that practice them. Milton Friedman says that because he's a policy advisor of countries that benefit from others dropping their protectionist policies. At a certain state of development (and when you are not yet top dog to dictate what "free" trade means to other countries), you need some well balanced protectionist policies.…

The infant industry argument is controversial, but assuming for a second it is correct, how is that related to the discussion about what course the US should take towards China right now? The US does not need industry protection. The US is the most advanced country on the planet.

When the US administration gets into a tradewar that makes Chinese commodities more expensive and stops American farmers from selling soybeans, how exactly is this to the benefit of anyone?

The answer is clearly that the narrative is purely political and not economical. Playing up China as an economic enemy rather than a partner resonates with a relatively small, but vocal minority of the voterbase, who for ideological reasons seeks conflict with China.

Re: Singapore Urges U.S. to Accept China's Rise, Spare Other Nations

#18

Post by Teever »

londons_explore wrote: post #11
product50 wrote: post #10

Isn't the ball in China's court here? I am not sure what is the expectation of US in this. China has a completely closed market while at the same time they are reaping the benefits of selling in markets of other countries with no penalties. How is that fair? Also, they force companies to share their technologies/IP if they are interested in coming into Chinese markets - and then they just steal it to undercut the for…

They aren't stopping other countries doing the same. The world might be a better place if everyone stole and remixed IP

They aren't stopping other countries from doing the same yet. And the reason for that is that they are still the underdog so it makes sense to turn a blind eye to their domestic industries violating American IP laws.

Just like it makes sense for the US to enact and attempt to enforce restrictive IP laws on a global scale.

Make no mistake once China ascends they will enforce their will on the world just like the US has done and it will be ugly.

Say goodbye to democracy. Say goodbye to due process. Say hello to coercive IP law. Say hello to unimaginably restrictive DRM and surveillance.

Re: Singapore Urges U.S. to Accept China's Rise, Spare Other Nations

#19

Post by coldtea »

product50 wrote: post #10

Isn't the ball in China's court here? I am not sure what is the expectation of US in this. China has a completely closed market while at the same time they are reaping the benefits of selling in markets of other countries with no penalties. How is that fair? Also, they force companies to share their technologies/IP if they are interested in coming into Chinese markets - and then they just steal it to undercut the for…

>Also, they force companies to share their technologies/IP if they are interested in coming into Chinese markets - and then they just steal it to undercut the foreign companies.

That's a great way to copyright reform right there!

Re: Singapore Urges U.S. to Accept China's Rise, Spare Other Nations

#20

Post by chewz »

NotPaidToPost wrote: post #7
thaumasiotes wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But how does China 'assuming its rightful place' should look in practical terms? > Allowing East Asia to become China's vassal territory? Sure, in much the same way that it was in the past, and in much the same way that all of North and South America are vassals to the United States. It is not realistic for East and even Southeast Asian countries to care more about what the US thinks than what China thinks; I don't…

East Asia is vassal to the US at the moment... I think countries like Singapore, Korea, etc do not want the US, Korea, to leave. They are between a rock and a hard place and want to balance the US and China in order not to become too dependent on one and to benefit from both. Singapore, which is quite "China-friendly" is saying exactly that. What I find interesting is that the West in general, and obviously the US in…

> East Asia is vassal to the US at the moment...

Even if it were true I am not sure if people of Singapore, Korea, Japan, Thailand or Taiwan would like to swap places with people of Xinjang or Tibet..

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