Having interviewed quite a few people, I tend to think that there's a correlation between not just a degree, but also the quality of the school where it was attained, and the quality of the candidate - as measured by his/her professional knowledge and ability.
That's not always true. In fact, of the two best coders I know, one didn't bother with a degree, and the other did it as an off hand, graduating after 8 years, having worked full time all along.
Nevertheless, when it comes to people I don't know, and given that I don't have the time to interview everyone who sends their resume, a degree serves as an initial filter. If the resume is impressive enough without it, then I'll go ahead and interview, but it has to be really impressive.
In short, not having a degree is an impediment. You can succeed without it, but you're putting yourself at a disadvantage.
Ask YC: Why the degree?
11–20 of 211 posts
Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?
#12I'm in the exact same boat, I don't have a degree - I must admit, I worked at a company that hired people with/ without degrees and the programmers that I could relate best with were the ones who had degrees.
I've been thinking about getting a degree, but between working a full time job and doing a startup I just don't have the time, I have however bought myself two excellent books, which I'm hoping to fill the gaps with:
* The elements of computing systems (From Nand to Tetris...)
* Programming collective intelligence.
Web developers who don't have degrees aren't exposed to the fundamentals and fancy algorithms that are beaten in to you in CS courses.
Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?
#13>For all the company knows, I (and countless others) could be the best developers they'd ever meet. And yet we're automatically excluded from even applying. The game is about probability, not possibility. The assumption is: P(qualified | degree) > P(qualified | no degree) That's probably reasonable, since schools do filter out at least some idiots. To find a candidate, one must interview roughly 1/P candidates. If in…
OK I can understand it from that perspective, it's not that there's so much weight being put on a degree, but rather its used for lack of other filters, when there's lots of applicants.
Doesn't sound very accurate, but I can see the reason why.
Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?
#14It all comes down to energy required to make a decision. Degree acts as a quick filter. For example, having a degree in CS does not mean that you are a good programmer but what I, as an employer, know about a person with a degree is that they possess a certain level of knowledge and they have also proven themselves and have shown that they can focus and accomplish something. If you think about it, those two things I…
Agreed, people with a degree have shown a commitment to a goal, and achieved it. That's definitely +1 to them, but as for the basic level of understanding, doesn't that become less effective as a gauge when candidates have 2-3 years of commercial experience?
Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?
#15Having interviewed quite a few people, I tend to think that there's a correlation between not just a degree, but also the quality of the school where it was attained, and the quality of the candidate - as measured by his/her professional knowledge and ability. That's not always true. In fact, of the two best coders I know, one didn't bother with a degree, and the other did it as an off hand, graduating after 8 years,…
If a position stated that a degree is a "nice to have, or advantage" I would certainly still send my CV and hope that it was glowing enough to counter my lack of degree, which I would hope it is through sheer commercial experience gained while everyone else was in education.
But my gripe is that most employers don't even give us that chance.
In a way, that has played its part in my working life that has sent me on a path to be independent and start my own company, so I guess its not all bad :)
Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?
#16If the company is great, but HR acts as a filter, skip HR. Contact the department you're looking at directly and be prepared to wow them.
Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?
#17I don't have a degree either and I have to admit: when I was in my 20s, it bothered me too as I thought, "I might be missing out on something." Today though, running my own business, I see that it worked out perfectly. In my latest job posting (for a .NET/SQL dev), I wrote "A Computer Science degree is not required but helpful" because I don't equate degree to good code. Joel Spolsky talks about this in his book and…
Thanks. I guess in that case it can be an indicator that the person has some kind of skill. Although I do have friends that have managed to get a degree in computer science and they still can't code unless they're copying from a book. Is Joel's book based on employing people straight out of education? because presumably people that hadn't gone the degree route would have 2-3 years commercial experience by the time pe…
Here's the book: http://tinyurl.com/3kr99k
It deals a lot w/ hiring interns-to-become-full-timers.
Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?
#18In my experience, even companies may ask for a degree, but if you show persistence, call & introduce yourself, walk in or network your way in.. they become more susceptible to giving you an interview.
Basically (in my experience) you have to show a genuine interest and pursue them at first, kind of like a woman/girl/chick/etc.
Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?
#19"I know several people that have degree's in computer science, and none have any magical abilities that you only pickup at university."
I think you are shortchanging the value of a formal education. You are forced to learn things you don't necessarily enjoy. For example, I was forced to take a few stats courses which I found extremely boring, but recently at work it was incredibly valuable. I know I thought I was a great developer when I was 16, but looking back I was just a good problem solver. A degree also forces you to work extremely hard on some things (projects, exams) with rigid deadlines.
Are you suggesting that people are wasting 4 years of their life? I realize it is 'just a piece of paper', but that piece of paper signifies an accomplishment.
Now I am sure a few people are going to say I have drunk the Kool-Aid. To that I suggest there are some places you can break the rules, and some times you have to play within the rules of the game. I think getting a degree still opens many doors, and because of that I followed through with it. Clearly there were times I considered skipping university or dropping out to pursue an opportunity, but looking back I have no regrets.
Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?
#20Maybe a degree means you are too willing to accept mindless mediocrity (like that found in our education system) and no degree (but the same level of ability) means the person is both autodidactic and unwilling to accept everyday mediocracies like found in our education system.
So the effect of demanding degrees is one of mediocre organizations (which are mediocre on account of, for example, routinely doing very dumb things like using tokens of accomplishment that do not reflect actual accomplishments and abilities to make decisions instead of doing the hard work of thinking and taking intelligent risks) reinforcing their mediocrity by selecting for people who have already demonstrated their ability to be content in a mediocre system. There are lots of studies that show very little to no relationship between grades and intelligence or grades and creativity. But organizations are unwilling to put this scientific knowledge into use.
I would feel more excited about interviewing a self taught developer who was good then someone who was taught through school, since I value self teaching, meritocracy and self motivation a good self taught person would display and despise the kind of cronyism, group think, and gradual relaxation of standards to the lowest common denominator that schools all too often represent.
If finding the right employer is like finding a needle in a haystack, anything that takes away most of the hay is good.