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China’s vast fleet is tipping the balance in the Pacific

reuters.com

11–20 of 102 posts

Re: China’s vast fleet is tipping the balance in the Pacific

#11
post #8

What is so worrying about China's massive military build up is that there's no benign explanation. China has long had enough conventional power to defend itself and more than enough nuclear weapons to hold up its side of MAD. It really just looks a lot like the king of China is preparing to start a war. It seems like in the best case he is preparing to take Taiwan and in the worst case he's planning to take all of As…

"No one can sleep well until the U.S. massively revamps its nuclear triad and either Japan or Europe create their own highly independent nuclear response capability. The future of humanity is currently relying on a single point of failure and it may already be too late."

Both the UK and France have a completely independent nuclear response.

"What is so worrying about China's massive military build up is that there's no benign explanation. China has long had enough conventional power to defend itself and more than enough nuclear weapons to hold up its side of MAD."

Then there is even less explanation for the USA spending many times more on their military.

"It really just looks a lot like the king of China is preparing to start a war. It seems like in the best case he is preparing to take Taiwan and in the worst case he's planning to take all of Asia while perhaps his ally, the king of Russia, takes Europe."

None of these countries have kings.

"he simple fact is that if these two dictators can figure out how take out the U.S. then there's nothing stopping them from taking over the entire world. The giant has been sleeping since it declared victory in the cold war decades ago."

There is plenty to stop these. Russia is a waning power, with demographics working against it, and a regionally unimportant economy (smaller than Italy, which is also not going to take over the world). China, whilst growing fast, does not have the capability to project power and has a number of internal problems. This is all without mentioning it's rivals in the area, Japan, which is re-arming to a degree, and India, which is also well on the way to being a major economic and military power, if a few years behind.

Re: China’s vast fleet is tipping the balance in the Pacific

#12
post #9

The US still has a huge Navy compared to China, and far more allies in the region than China does. In theory, we just have to make more advanced weapon technology available to some our allies in the region. I'd support helping India modernize their military with equipment, training and joint exercises.

Given their current tensions with Pakistan, that seems like a horrific idea

Re: China’s vast fleet is tipping the balance in the Pacific

#13
post #9

The US still has a huge Navy compared to China, and far more allies in the region than China does. In theory, we just have to make more advanced weapon technology available to some our allies in the region. I'd support helping India modernize their military with equipment, training and joint exercises.

Bear in mind, though, that the US Navy operates in the Pacific, Atlantic, and Indian Oceans, as well as the Mediterranean and occasionally Arctic. The US Navy often operates far from US naval port facilities.

The Chinese fleet is concentrated almost entirely in the Western Pacific, near its naval ports.

Re: China’s vast fleet is tipping the balance in the Pacific

#14

Anyone interested in understanding the balance of power in China/Pacific: I enjoyed "Destined for War", "World Order" (big section for China), and "On China". I'd welcome more suggestions.

"In the Shadow of the Thucydides Trap: International Relations Theory and the Prospects for Peace in U.S.-China Relations"

https://link.springer.com/epdf/10.1007/s11366-018-9581-4?aut...

Re: China’s vast fleet is tipping the balance in the Pacific

#15
post #9

The US still has a huge Navy compared to China, and far more allies in the region than China does. In theory, we just have to make more advanced weapon technology available to some our allies in the region. I'd support helping India modernize their military with equipment, training and joint exercises.

Good idea. I'd support lending Bumblebee to Vietnam if his existence can be kept reasonably under wraps. Possibly also some of our Grey tech like the blackout gear and non-newtonian recon craft. And finally I'd like to personally extend a wider, international appeal to Madame Vastra, Jenny Flint, and Strax to make themselves available on call should anything more nefarious be afoot, in the sense that the future of mankind hangs in the balance.

Re: China’s vast fleet is tipping the balance in the Pacific

#16
post #2

Great. I doubt this is the beginning of WW3 but considering what's happening with Vietnam and Myanmar I'd bet that we'll have a new hegemony that Taiwan falls under if nothing changes in the next 5 years or so. Does anyone have any books on the economics of war/war of economics and such? I'm wondering where else this could go.

What's happening with Vietnam and Myanmar?

Re: China’s vast fleet is tipping the balance in the Pacific

#17
I guess it's probably not very realistic but to me the only way to get to real security that you can count on to last is to change the whole paradigm.

I mean the basic premise is that the bottom line for control is deadly force.

Maybe there really is no alternative but I think it's worth mentioning that as long is that is the operating mode, there is no real security for human life. You can certainly have extended periods without major wars but as long as the paradigm remains, it's always just a matter of time before the next mass killing starts.

I mean as far as Taiwan goes, it's right next to China, there is a long history. The paradigm is that you have a right to whatever you can take by force. If they get to the point where they can invade successfully and don't think that it is _actually_ going to start WW3, they may feel obligated to do it. Because yes it would probably result in a large loss of life, but the international operating mode is that serious conflicts are resolved with machines designed to destroy property and lives.

Re: China’s vast fleet is tipping the balance in the Pacific

#18
post #8

What is so worrying about China's massive military build up is that there's no benign explanation. China has long had enough conventional power to defend itself and more than enough nuclear weapons to hold up its side of MAD. It really just looks a lot like the king of China is preparing to start a war. It seems like in the best case he is preparing to take Taiwan and in the worst case he's planning to take all of As…

What is so worrying about China's massive military build up is that there's no benign explanation.

China wants access to the world's oceans which isn't dictated by a foreign power. China wants ocean access parity with the United States, along with the opportunity to become the global dominant superpower in the 21st century.

It seems like in the best case he is preparing to take Taiwan and in the worst case he's planning to take all of Asia

Taiwan is the cork in the bottle. If China has that, then there is no keeping them bottled up.

The simple fact is that if these two dictators can figure out how take out the U.S. then there's nothing stopping them from taking over the entire world.

The US doesn't need to be taken out. All they have to do, is to out-compete the US in economic power, then use the money to build a more modern, more powerful Navy.

Look at the resources and air superiority it took to pull off the Normandy landing. When China becomes capable of all that, even temporarily, it will be able to take Taiwan, then eventually take its place as the new superpower.

Re: China’s vast fleet is tipping the balance in the Pacific

#19
post #9

The US still has a huge Navy compared to China, and far more allies in the region than China does. In theory, we just have to make more advanced weapon technology available to some our allies in the region. I'd support helping India modernize their military with equipment, training and joint exercises.

The US still has a huge Navy compared to China, and far more allies in the region than China does.

This might well change if China takes back Taiwan. If that happens, China could engineer a situation where it's better for the local powers to cozy up to China, than to take the side of the distant US. Even though the US, as a distant hegemon, is the better option, the US might not have the power to keep China at bay any more, so the lesser of the two evils for everyone could be seen to give in.

If I were in the Defense Department, I would be creating SOSUS-like arrays near Taiwan, Japan, Korea, and the Philippines, plus an R&D program to create a swarm of super quiet autonomous midget submarines to go along with it. Basically, take unprecedented steps to make it tremendously dangerous to invade Taiwan, even if China has air superiority. (I very much doubt we'd be able to prevent China from getting that in the long term, even temporarily.)

Re: China’s vast fleet is tipping the balance in the Pacific

#20
post #9

The US still has a huge Navy compared to China, and far more allies in the region than China does. In theory, we just have to make more advanced weapon technology available to some our allies in the region. I'd support helping India modernize their military with equipment, training and joint exercises.

Bear in mind, though, that the US Navy operates in the Pacific, Atlantic, and Indian Oceans, as well as the Mediterranean and occasionally Arctic. The US Navy often operates far from US naval port facilities. The Chinese fleet is concentrated almost entirely in the Western Pacific, near its naval ports.

The US faces many of the logistic and economic challenges the British faced when they ruled the world's oceans.
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