When Doctors Thought ‘Wanderlust’ Was a Psychological Condition • Hacker News Board

Re: When Doctors Thought ‘Wanderlust’ Was a Psychological Condition

#11

Post by johnchristopher » Mon, Apr 22, 2019, 2:51 PM UTC

izzydata wrote: post #2

Aren't most mental disorders just behaviors that differ from the norm and make it difficult for those people to function in everyday society? Some cultures wouldn't recognize some things as a disorder if it wasn't difficult for those people. My point being that I don't understand where you draw the line. If someone had such a need to wander the world that it meant that they couldn't live properly in modern society th…

> My point being that I don't understand where you draw the line.

The line is drawn once it becomes dangerous for people around the person, or the person itself, or when the person is suffering from that condition (and not just "society misunderstanding him").

For instance, I have been the focus/target of a schizophrenic person whose condition was abruptly worsening at the time. He became a danger to me and my significant other (we are talking physical threats, punching walls, etc.). It escalated with him going to the police to file a complaint against me and two other parties for computer fraud which I only learned 6 months after he had gotten out of my life.

So, that's why mental disorders aren't just "behaviors that differ from the norm". I wish it were just cushy misadaptations but it's not.

Re: When Doctors Thought ‘Wanderlust’ Was a Psychological Condition

#12

Post by LifeLiverTransp » Mon, Apr 22, 2019, 2:53 PM UTC

whatshisface wrote: post #3

izzydata wrote: post #2

Aren't most mental disorders just behaviors that differ from the norm and make it difficult for those people to function in everyday society? Some cultures wouldn't recognize some things as a disorder if it wasn't difficult for those people. My point being that I don't understand where you draw the line. If someone had such a need to wander the world that it meant that they couldn't live properly in modern society th…

> Some cultures wouldn't recognize some things as a disorder if it wasn't difficult for those people. There are a few mental disorders like that, but it's important to bear in mind that most of them (major depression, mid to low functioning autism, anxiety, schizophrenia, and so on) lead to objectively reduced functioning independent of society and a lot of suffering in whoever has them. It's not something to be roma…

Almost like biological determined scoutships for a group, arent they?

Imagine a bunch of hunte/gatherers, who just entered a new continent (like north-america)- having those loonies orbiting the group, reporting new ressources, scouting ahead- sounds well adapted.

Re: When Doctors Thought ‘Wanderlust’ Was a Psychological Condition

#13

Post by lazyjones » Mon, Apr 22, 2019, 2:53 PM UTC

Surely there can be both a healthy "wanderlust" borne out of curiosity and eagerness to explore the world and a pathological restlessness due to some anxiety disorder? I don't see a convincing case for conflating these two things. But it does make a good headline...

Re: When Doctors Thought ‘Wanderlust’ Was a Psychological Condition

#14

Post by admax88q » Mon, Apr 22, 2019, 3:05 PM UTC

Nasrudith wrote: post #8

whatshisface wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some cultures wouldn't recognize some things as a disorder if it wasn't difficult for those people. There are a few mental disorders like that, but it's important to bear in mind that most of them (major depression, mid to low functioning autism, anxiety, schizophrenia, and so on) lead to objectively reduced functioning independent of society and a lot of suffering in whoever has them. It's not something to be roma…

There is also the converse - what is accepted as "normal" or even praised as a virtue is harmful and destructive. To give real examples smoking was normal, as was pedestray and ironically the Roman gladiatoral combat which is considered peak decadence was intended to combat decadence! Normal is a pretty shitty heuristic for being good.

> Normal is a pretty shitty heuristic for being good.

A few counter examples doesn't mean that the heuristic is bad. Heuristics will always have counter examples, that's why they're heuristics, not rules.

Re: When Doctors Thought ‘Wanderlust’ Was a Psychological Condition

#15

Post by forgottenpass » Mon, Apr 22, 2019, 3:10 PM UTC

izzydata wrote: post #2

Aren't most mental disorders just behaviors that differ from the norm and make it difficult for those people to function in everyday society? Some cultures wouldn't recognize some things as a disorder if it wasn't difficult for those people. My point being that I don't understand where you draw the line. If someone had such a need to wander the world that it meant that they couldn't live properly in modern society th…

>Aren't most mental disorders just behaviors that differ from the norm and make it difficult for those people to function in everyday society?

Yes. Exactly this.

>My point being that I don't understand where you draw the line.

When the person with the norm-non-following behavior is unable integrate with wider society.

I was lucky enough to study psychology under someone with a streak of playful contempt for the unwanted self-seriousness that the field has. His definition of "mental disorder" as deviation from norms made sense on the first day, the definition at the top of the "mental disorder" wikipedia page is just a rabbit hole of using words that need to be defined clearly and specifically for the definition to mean anything.

Defining mental disorder as an inability to integrate can feel unsatisfying because it's essentializes the current norms of one's societal context. We know them to be entirely flexible over a short timescale (for definitions of "short" that include a decade) and it drives a line between those who can't adapt but by chance happen to ingrate and those who don't. But if you think about it for a while, you'll realize: what else could it be?

Re: When Doctors Thought ‘Wanderlust’ Was a Psychological Condition

#16

Post by jeroenhd » Mon, Apr 22, 2019, 3:44 PM UTC

Nasrudith wrote: post #8

whatshisface wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some cultures wouldn't recognize some things as a disorder if it wasn't difficult for those people. There are a few mental disorders like that, but it's important to bear in mind that most of them (major depression, mid to low functioning autism, anxiety, schizophrenia, and so on) lead to objectively reduced functioning independent of society and a lot of suffering in whoever has them. It's not something to be roma…

There is also the converse - what is accepted as "normal" or even praised as a virtue is harmful and destructive. To give real examples smoking was normal, as was pedestray and ironically the Roman gladiatoral combat which is considered peak decadence was intended to combat decadence! Normal is a pretty shitty heuristic for being good.

I don't see how Roman gladiatorial combat is so different from modern sports. The only major difference is the fact that nearly all gladiators were slaves, but otherwise I see no difference between gladiators and UFC fighting tournaments (or for that matter, American football).

I just don't see the peak decadence point.

Re: When Doctors Thought ‘Wanderlust’ Was a Psychological Condition

#17

Post by maxheadroom » Mon, Apr 22, 2019, 3:45 PM UTC

izzydata wrote: post #2

Aren't most mental disorders just behaviors that differ from the norm and make it difficult for those people to function in everyday society? Some cultures wouldn't recognize some things as a disorder if it wasn't difficult for those people. My point being that I don't understand where you draw the line. If someone had such a need to wander the world that it meant that they couldn't live properly in modern society th…

>Aren't most mental disorders just behaviors that differ from the norm and make it difficult for those people to function in everyday society?

(Story time.) I went to a presentation one time at work about mental health. (It was part of the government's mental health awareness campaign[0].) In this presentation, the presenter mentioned bathing/lack of changing clothes as a marker for possible mental health issues.

As someone who grew up in a very poor area, where the water came from wells (which oft could dry-up) or the folk couldn't afford but to wash their clothes once a month in the local washateria (if that), I took issue with this idea.

From a privileged, lower-middle class or above perspective, sure, you could say that it's a possible indicator of mental health issues; however, if this were a normalised version of someone's life, having growing up so poor/destitute, would it really be a sign of mental health issues or would it just be a byproduct of their lower social-class life?

So, I guess I have to say that the answer to your question is, "yes": Your "norm" could be vastly different from someone else's.

[0] - https://www.mentalhealthireland.ie/

Re: When Doctors Thought ‘Wanderlust’ Was a Psychological Condition

#18

Post by 50656E6973 » Mon, Apr 22, 2019, 3:54 PM UTC

admax88q wrote: post #14

Nasrudith wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is also the converse - what is accepted as "normal" or even praised as a virtue is harmful and destructive. To give real examples smoking was normal, as was pedestray and ironically the Roman gladiatoral combat which is considered peak decadence was intended to combat decadence! Normal is a pretty shitty heuristic for being good.

> Normal is a pretty shitty heuristic for being good. A few counter examples doesn't mean that the heuristic is bad. Heuristics will always have counter examples, that's why they're heuristics, not rules.

How many counter examples do you need before determining if a heuristic is bad, in your opinion?

Re: When Doctors Thought ‘Wanderlust’ Was a Psychological Condition

#19

Post by programbreeding » Mon, Apr 22, 2019, 3:56 PM UTC

maxheadroom wrote: post #17

izzydata wrote: post #2

Aren't most mental disorders just behaviors that differ from the norm and make it difficult for those people to function in everyday society? Some cultures wouldn't recognize some things as a disorder if it wasn't difficult for those people. My point being that I don't understand where you draw the line. If someone had such a need to wander the world that it meant that they couldn't live properly in modern society th…

> Aren't most mental disorders just behaviors that differ from the norm and make it difficult for those people to function in everyday society? (Story time.) I went to a presentation one time at work about mental health. (It was part of the government's mental health awareness campaign[0].) In this presentation, the presenter mentioned bathing/lack of changing clothes as a marker for possible mental health issues. As…

I think you have a totally valid point/concern, but that logic could be applied to nearly everything. For example, anorexia is a marker for possible mental health issues, but someone who doesn't eat because they can't afford it doesn't have anorexia.

I think it's assumed that a diagnosis/marker is valid only to that particular person based on their background.

Re: When Doctors Thought ‘Wanderlust’ Was a Psychological Condition

#20

Post by 50656E6973 » Mon, Apr 22, 2019, 3:57 PM UTC

izzydata wrote: post #5

whatshisface wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some cultures wouldn't recognize some things as a disorder if it wasn't difficult for those people. There are a few mental disorders like that, but it's important to bear in mind that most of them (major depression, mid to low functioning autism, anxiety, schizophrenia, and so on) lead to objectively reduced functioning independent of society and a lot of suffering in whoever has them. It's not something to be roma…

Would you happen to know if there is some classification difference between a mental disorder that may involve some kind of chemical imbalance and a personality disorder which would be more like having a personality that makes daily life difficult? I feel like they get lumped together, but maybe I'm just ignorant about how these terms are used.

The "chemical imbalance" theory is a Big Pharma marketing slogan, not a real scientific fact.