How the car industry hid the truth about diesel emissions • Hacker News Board

Re: How the car industry hid the truth about diesel emissions

#11

Post by ip26 » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 4:03 AM UTC

TheRealDunkirk wrote: post #8

I work in this industry, so I've been following it from the start. I've run test cells and written software to analyze the results from the emissions cycles that the government uses to validate the emissions compliance. I have worked around and for a very large diesel engine manufacturer who I am convinced does not cheat on this test. You'll understand why, below. I recently leveled-up my career, and I now work with…

I guess it depends a little on whether you feel like the spec writer or testers should have anticipated cheating, and attempted to detect it or not. If the job of a tester includes catching cheaters, or if a good spec should be very hard to cheat, I'm not sure missing that falls at the feet of the legislators.

Re: How the car industry hid the truth about diesel emissions

#12

Post by wil421 » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 4:43 AM UTC

TheRealDunkirk wrote: post #8

I work in this industry, so I've been following it from the start. I've run test cells and written software to analyze the results from the emissions cycles that the government uses to validate the emissions compliance. I have worked around and for a very large diesel engine manufacturer who I am convinced does not cheat on this test. You'll understand why, below. I recently leveled-up my career, and I now work with…

How can VW create an engine, cheat, and sell it to Chrysler? Then Chrysler has to put a urea tank to meet emissions. How did some brilliant engineer writing the spec or the third parties not notice?

Re: How the car industry hid the truth about diesel emissions

#13

Post by yeukhon » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 4:59 AM UTC

Netflix'a Dirty Money documentary Ep 1 covers this topic: https://www.netflix.com/title/80118100

Re: How the car industry hid the truth about diesel emissions

#14

Post by ummonk » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 5:05 AM UTC

TheRealDunkirk wrote: post #8

I work in this industry, so I've been following it from the start. I've run test cells and written software to analyze the results from the emissions cycles that the government uses to validate the emissions compliance. I have worked around and for a very large diesel engine manufacturer who I am convinced does not cheat on this test. You'll understand why, below. I recently leveled-up my career, and I now work with…

>To think that cars could use diesel engines, be cost-competitive with gasoline-fueled alternatives, AND pass the ridiculously-low emissions standards that lawmakers have arbitrarily decreed was simply wishful thinking.

The emissions standards are perfectly sensible for maintaining good air quality. It definitely looks like it is wishful thinking for diesel engines to meet those standards and be cost-competitive with gasoline-fueled alternatives, but there is nothing wrong with that. Gasoline engines may simply be the more suitable technology for passenger cars.

Re: How the car industry hid the truth about diesel emissions

#15

Post by Yaggo » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 5:19 AM UTC

European here. My next car will be electric, likely a Tesla. The dieselgate is the reason why I'm not even considering Volkswagen's upcoming 'ID' family of electric cars. I've similar feeling about the whole traditional auto industry.

Re: How the car industry hid the truth about diesel emissions

#16

Post by mirimir » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 5:36 AM UTC

makomk wrote: post #6

" Schmied responded that as long as emissions went down when limits were tightened, his department didn’t mind they were many times higher than allowed." Some context for this: the official European test cycle was known not to be representative of real driving conditions. Because it was less aggressive than real-world driving, it pretty much always overstated fuel efficiency and understated emissions. So real-world e…

Sure, but don't the laws limit emissions? Irrespective of how well standard government tests were measuring those emissions?

So "We publish this data" just sounds like "I'm doing my job. Anything more is not my problem."

Re: How the car industry hid the truth about diesel emissions

#17

Post by armada651 » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 5:58 AM UTC

pkaye wrote: post #9

So did the recall all those failing 97% of 250 car models in the EU?

Yes, but in many countries like the UK the recall is voluntary, it's just a recommendation.

Re: How the car industry hid the truth about diesel emissions

#18

Post by Reason077 » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 6:28 AM UTC

ummonk wrote: post #14

TheRealDunkirk wrote: post #8

I work in this industry, so I've been following it from the start. I've run test cells and written software to analyze the results from the emissions cycles that the government uses to validate the emissions compliance. I have worked around and for a very large diesel engine manufacturer who I am convinced does not cheat on this test. You'll understand why, below. I recently leveled-up my career, and I now work with…

>To think that cars could use diesel engines, be cost-competitive with gasoline-fueled alternatives, AND pass the ridiculously-low emissions standards that lawmakers have arbitrarily decreed was simply wishful thinking. The emissions standards are perfectly sensible for maintaining good air quality. It definitely looks like it is wishful thinking for diesel engines to meet those standards and be cost-competitive with…

> It definitely looks like it is wishful thinking for diesel engines to meet those standards and be cost-competitive with gasoline-fueled alternatives

The technology that would have brought "Dieselgate" diesels into compliance with EU emissions rules was said to cost manufacturers something on the order of US$100 per vehicle: Selective catalytic reduction (SCR) with a refillable AdBlue (urea) tank.

However, prior to Dieselgate there is alleged to have been collusion between the major German automakers and a secret agreement not to install it on small vehicles.

This collusion, rather than the emissions cheating itself, is the focus of ongoing criminal investigations in Germany. (Cheating on emissions tests itself was not actually illegal in Europe, because the legislation was created with loopholes).

As of 2019, AdBlue is becoming common on new small diesel vehicles in Europe.

Re: How the car industry hid the truth about diesel emissions

#19

Post by gcb0 » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 6:28 AM UTC

Yaggo wrote: post #15

European here. My next car will be electric, likely a Tesla. The dieselgate is the reason why I'm not even considering Volkswagen's upcoming 'ID' family of electric cars. I've similar feeling about the whole traditional auto industry.

better buy from a car company founded by a money launderer who is currently lying on tweeter to manipulate stock prices illegally and fighting hard to keep under wraps the auto pilot killer bugs.

any reason why you are not buying from the dozen asian manufacturers that are not involved in either shenanigans if you base your purchases solely on moral grounds?

Re: How the car industry hid the truth about diesel emissions

#20

Post by gcb0 » Sat, Mar 23, 2019, 6:32 AM UTC

oska wrote: post #4

joelkevinjones wrote: post #2

A coworker and I had a discussion with another coworker when this scandal broke. We couldn't convince him that he was wrong when he said there is no way car software could "cheat" like that. Even after we came up with several things that could be done in the space of about a minute, he remained unconvinced. If you follow through the article to the reference US DoJ press release, VW's software used several of the idea…

What's the point of this anecdote other than to make you look smart and your coworker look dumb? Maybe both things are true but it's hardly a very interesting observation that there are both smarter and dumber people in the population.

in the middle he points how the software "features" were decidedly malicious as they are similar to their own hypothetical solutions to circumvent the law?