Cookie Warning Shenanigans Have Got to Stop • Hacker News Board

Re: Cookie Warning Shenanigans Have Got to Stop

#11

Post by shaki-dora » Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 6:44 PM UTC

tylerrobinson wrote: post #6

I find the clarification about cookie walls being out of compliance with GDPR to be a real headscratcher. Here's part of the Dutch authority's FAQs[0] thanks to Google Translate: "At a cookie wall, website visitors have no real or free choice. It is true that they can refuse tracking cookies, but that is not possible without adverse consequences. Because refusing tracking cookies means that they cannot access the web…

I am befuddled by your befuddlement.

Consumer protection laws regularly put limits on the freedom of contracts between companies and consumers. A rental car agency can’t give you a rebate for renting an unsafe car.

The fact that no money changes hands doesn’t change this. If you’re offering free taster portions of bread to passer-bys, you can not use lead as an ingredient. Neither being free, nor putting up a sign with the list of ingredients will change that.

Re: Cookie Warning Shenanigans Have Got to Stop

#12

Post by duxup » Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 6:44 PM UTC

I feel like GDPR and such had some good spirit to it... but the result isn't what they had in mind and the consumers just click through everything / have no more clue. Piling on or malforming GDPR seems like it would just make the already unworkable situation more of a mess.

I like the "ideas" behind GDPR, it's just this isn't the way to do it and really accomplish anything that really helps an individual.

Re: Cookie Warning Shenanigans Have Got to Stop

#13

Post by lbarrow » Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 6:45 PM UTC

tylerrobinson wrote: post #6

I find the clarification about cookie walls being out of compliance with GDPR to be a real headscratcher. Here's part of the Dutch authority's FAQs[0] thanks to Google Translate: "At a cookie wall, website visitors have no real or free choice. It is true that they can refuse tracking cookies, but that is not possible without adverse consequences. Because refusing tracking cookies means that they cannot access the web…

That's how the GDPR works - unless the data being collected is required for the operation of the service, you cannot make data collection a requirement of using the service.

Re: Cookie Warning Shenanigans Have Got to Stop

#14

Post by EpicEng » Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 6:45 PM UTC

tylerrobinson wrote: post #6

I find the clarification about cookie walls being out of compliance with GDPR to be a real headscratcher. Here's part of the Dutch authority's FAQs[0] thanks to Google Translate: "At a cookie wall, website visitors have no real or free choice. It is true that they can refuse tracking cookies, but that is not possible without adverse consequences. Because refusing tracking cookies means that they cannot access the web…

Of course you have a choice, but in reality who leaves a site because they see that warning? I imagine almost no one. Hell, I understand the implications and I don't care because site X has what I'm after and perhaps no one else does (or they all have the same warning anyway.) I have no reasonable option but to accept whatever these sites want.

The warnings accomplish nothing. It's just another nag screen. It was a bad idea when it was thought up and it still is today. It's an attempt to seal a wound (misuse of personal data) with a piece of string. It wasn't even a half decent band-aid.

Re: Cookie Warning Shenanigans Have Got to Stop

#15

Post by shaki-dora » Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 6:47 PM UTC

What people miss about the new GDPR notices, compared to cookie warnings of yore, is that they offer you the choice of opting out.

In my experience, the option is usually hidden (look for “options”). But a surprising number of sites do actually comply and make this not prohibitively obscure.

Re: Cookie Warning Shenanigans Have Got to Stop

#16

Post by dmortin » Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 6:48 PM UTC

lbarrow wrote: post #13

tylerrobinson wrote: post #6

I find the clarification about cookie walls being out of compliance with GDPR to be a real headscratcher. Here's part of the Dutch authority's FAQs[0] thanks to Google Translate: "At a cookie wall, website visitors have no real or free choice. It is true that they can refuse tracking cookies, but that is not possible without adverse consequences. Because refusing tracking cookies means that they cannot access the web…

That's how the GDPR works - unless the data being collected is required for the operation of the service, you cannot make data collection a requirement of using the service.

What if the ads are required for the operation of the website, because without them the site has to close? People are rarely willing to pay for big sites, they surely won't pay for many small sites separately.

Smaller sites don't have the resources to curate their own ads, that's why they use ad networks. If we are strict about this then this rule will eliminate small sites while tightening the grip of the big sites on the net, because they have the resources to adapt.

Re: Cookie Warning Shenanigans Have Got to Stop

#17

Post by fixermark » Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 6:49 PM UTC

duxup wrote: post #12

I feel like GDPR and such had some good spirit to it... but the result isn't what they had in mind and the consumers just click through everything / have no more clue. Piling on or malforming GDPR seems like it would just make the already unworkable situation more of a mess. I like the "ideas" behind GDPR, it's just this isn't the way to do it and really accomplish anything that really helps an individual.

I wonder how often we'll repeat the error of treating user privacy as something the user cares deeply about (against all this observable evidence to the contrary) before we accept that the well-demonstrated-and-documented default is users do not care (and if we want the behavior of websites to change, step 1 is educating users as to why they should care and what the risk models are).

Re: Cookie Warning Shenanigans Have Got to Stop

#18

Post by scrollaway » Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 6:49 PM UTC

dash2 wrote: post #5

This is like a case study of well-intentioned, carefully designed regulation doing more harm than good. Honestly, I'd rather just have a browser addin that blocks the cookies I don't want. The market was working fine. Now every new website is a pain, and my organization has hired some amiable lady to be "GDPR expert". She doesn't appear to know anything about anything, but she sure seems nice.

GDPR absolutely does not do "more harm than good". It extends well, well beyond these dumb cookie warnings.

GDPR puts the citizen/customer in power of their own data. They can ask for their data, they can ask for it to be deleted, they have (however shitty the UX) control over where it goes. They can contact large corporations and request these things and be heard out.

I don't know how to explain it any other way: These things are fucking important.

As for your organization's GDPR expert who doesn't know anything about anything, this sounds like a "your organization" problem. Replace GDPR with some other acronym such as HIPAA, PCI or even SEO or PHP, it's still your organization's fault for hiring someone who doesn't know their stuff. How is that GDPR's fault?

Edit: Yes, keep downvoting facts. GDPR isn't just cookie warnings, how is that controversial?

Re: Cookie Warning Shenanigans Have Got to Stop

#19

Post by kilburn » Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 6:49 PM UTC

I'm sure there's some good reason not do it, so I'll ask if anyone here knows: why doesn't the law just require some technical implementation that can be automated? Why can't the law just specify something similar to the DNT header (finer grained) and require compliance with that?

Re: Cookie Warning Shenanigans Have Got to Stop

#20

Post by fixermark » Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 6:50 PM UTC

EpicEng wrote: post #14

tylerrobinson wrote: post #6

I find the clarification about cookie walls being out of compliance with GDPR to be a real headscratcher. Here's part of the Dutch authority's FAQs[0] thanks to Google Translate: "At a cookie wall, website visitors have no real or free choice. It is true that they can refuse tracking cookies, but that is not possible without adverse consequences. Because refusing tracking cookies means that they cannot access the web…

Of course you have a choice, but in reality who leaves a site because they see that warning? I imagine almost no one. Hell, I understand the implications and I don't care because site X has what I'm after and perhaps no one else does (or they all have the same warning anyway.) I have no reasonable option but to accept whatever these sites want. The warnings accomplish nothing. It's just another nag screen. It was a b…

... and users appear to disagree on whether there's a wound to seal.