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Google Finds That Perks Can't Keep Some Employees From Leaving

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Re: Google Finds That Perks Can't Keep Some Employees From Leaving

#11
post #7
post #3

It must be a fine line to walk between finding hyper-intelligent people, meeting their intense need for self actualization, and mostly employing them in the soul numbing work of selling ads.

This criticism -- that genius is being wasted on "soul numbing" ad work -- strikes me as an inaccurate cheap shot. First, because most of the brain power at Google isn't devoted to the ad systems, but to the services that attract an audience. Don't you think their most "hyper-intelligent people" are engaged in the constant and noble battle to continue improving search, for an ever-changing internet and against the ef…

I agree it's a bit of a cheap shot. I don't think it's inaccurate.

There is no doubt the ad system is valuable. There is no doubt that creating the advertising systems google uses would be an intellectual challenge. But people don't want to see ads. This work is mostly the work of deciding how to best trick people into being distracted by text they don't want to see in the first place.

The better the ad people do their jobs, the worse off most people are for it. This is the basis for the work being soul numbing.

Conversely, on what basis would working on google's ads be the kind of soul affirming work you look back happily on as you cough up blood while you're dying 50 years from now?

Then the googlers can look at all the stuff someone like Ludwig Mies or Steve Reich or Jonathan Ive comes out with. I am sure that google has a huge amount of talent that would be capable of creating at this level (the peak of human potential), and they don't produce much at this level.

Re: Google Finds That Perks Can't Keep Some Employees From Leaving

#12
It must just be me, but if I had a job at Google I wouldn't leave it to go work at a place like Facebook. All they have going for them is mass adoption which doesn't mean much without a worthwhile monetization strategy which they've yet to find.

Work for a high-flying tech company with more perks than anybody, 20% of my time to work on whatever I want and a proven method for generating massive income or jump ship to work at the "hottest thing" of the moment where they need to take millions of funding each year just to keep the lights on and expansion moving along... seems a pretty easy decision to me.

Have we really gotten to the point where working at Google is considered "soul numbing work?" Some people would be wise to gain some perspective.

Re: Google Finds That Perks Can't Keep Some Employees From Leaving

#13
Also, Google's engineering and hiring and payment policies are frustratingly biased towards C++ developers. I know several top-notch web developers who have turned down google offers because they'd be making less than other companies would pay them, and many of those startups offer options as well.

When you find a top-notch web developer, telling them they're not worth as much as a C++ developer (of any ability) is just crazy. They're a rare and hotly contested breed in the valley.

Re: Google Finds That Perks Can't Keep Some Employees From Leaving

#14
post #10

Everyone keeps referring to their lunches as "haute cuisine". Maybe I missed something the couple times I ate there, but I don't think it's fair to refer to a buffet as that. I guess relative to the normal corporate vending machines it's pretty awesome, but it's far from a Michelin 3 Star joint.

Are you kidding? How many buffets have you been to with real, decently awesome sushi? Filet Mignon? It's a several leaps above Hometown Buffet in so many ways...

It's kind of like the whole foods buffet.

Re: Google Finds That Perks Can't Keep Some Employees From Leaving

#15
post #11
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This criticism -- that genius is being wasted on "soul numbing" ad work -- strikes me as an inaccurate cheap shot. First, because most of the brain power at Google isn't devoted to the ad systems, but to the services that attract an audience. Don't you think their most "hyper-intelligent people" are engaged in the constant and noble battle to continue improving search, for an ever-changing internet and against the ef…

I agree it's a bit of a cheap shot. I don't think it's inaccurate. There is no doubt the ad system is valuable. There is no doubt that creating the advertising systems google uses would be an intellectual challenge. But people don't want to see ads. This work is mostly the work of deciding how to best trick people into being distracted by text they don't want to see in the first place. The better the ad people do the…

I think that we will see excessive commercialization as something evil in 50+ years, along with the whole institution of corporations. So, going on this train of thought, how can you be a slave to any corporation where the huge number of employees are making very few very rich and die happy? On my death bed I will not look back and say 'I am really glad I worked for X and sacrificed time from my friends and family to make the company extra money.'

I just want to be proud of my accomplishments and know I worked hard and played hard. Whether or not I got by with ad revenue probably won't factor into it too much for me.

Re: Google Finds That Perks Can't Keep Some Employees From Leaving

#16

Also, Google's engineering and hiring and payment policies are frustratingly biased towards C++ developers. I know several top-notch web developers who have turned down google offers because they'd be making less than other companies would pay them, and many of those startups offer options as well. When you find a top-notch web developer, telling them they're not worth as much as a C++ developer (of any ability) is j…

It is much easier to find a top notch web developer than it is to find someone top notch who is good at C++. This is the case anywhere in Silicon Valley where C++ programmers who actually know what they are doing are needed. VMWare, for instance, pays like $160,000 starting salary to C++ wizards.

Re: Google Finds That Perks Can't Keep Some Employees From Leaving

#17

Also, Google's engineering and hiring and payment policies are frustratingly biased towards C++ developers. I know several top-notch web developers who have turned down google offers because they'd be making less than other companies would pay them, and many of those startups offer options as well. When you find a top-notch web developer, telling them they're not worth as much as a C++ developer (of any ability) is j…

It is much easier to find a top notch web developer than it is to find someone top notch who is good at C++. This is the case anywhere in Silicon Valley where C++ programmers who actually know what they are doing are needed. VMWare, for instance, pays like $160,000 starting salary to C++ wizards.

> It is much easier to find a top notch web developer than it is to find someone top notch who is good at C++.

I disagree with this. Top notch people in web development are extremely rare. You can find a lot of mediocre people, or motivated people, but finding people both motivated and talented is hard.

It's also unfortunate that Google limits itself to C++, but that's a whole different story.

Re: Google Finds That Perks Can't Keep Some Employees From Leaving

#18
post #12

It must just be me, but if I had a job at Google I wouldn't leave it to go work at a place like Facebook. All they have going for them is mass adoption which doesn't mean much without a worthwhile monetization strategy which they've yet to find. Work for a high-flying tech company with more perks than anybody, 20% of my time to work on whatever I want and a proven method for generating massive income or jump ship to…

Hardly anyone gets to do the 20% time. Google has done a good job keeping its engineering hiring relatively top notch, but it has not done the same with its management hiring process. Thus there is a good chance your manager will be a complete psycho.

Re: Google Finds That Perks Can't Keep Some Employees From Leaving

#19
post #11
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This criticism -- that genius is being wasted on "soul numbing" ad work -- strikes me as an inaccurate cheap shot. First, because most of the brain power at Google isn't devoted to the ad systems, but to the services that attract an audience. Don't you think their most "hyper-intelligent people" are engaged in the constant and noble battle to continue improving search, for an ever-changing internet and against the ef…

I agree it's a bit of a cheap shot. I don't think it's inaccurate. There is no doubt the ad system is valuable. There is no doubt that creating the advertising systems google uses would be an intellectual challenge. But people don't want to see ads. This work is mostly the work of deciding how to best trick people into being distracted by text they don't want to see in the first place. The better the ad people do the…

Well-matched non-obnoxious ads don't make people worse off and aren't a 'trick'. For example, for many Google queries, the paid results are more interesting to me than the natural results.

Since ad revenue makes other content possible, the better ad people do their jobs, the better off audiences are. If only dumb and ineffective people worked on ad systems, we'd lose a lot of quality web content.

Not all work has to be 'soul affirming' work like a missionary might perform. There is honor and dignity in just doing something people want at a price they're happy to pay. Especially so if applying your smarts makes things wildly cheaper, better, or more plentiful than before.

Re: Google Finds That Perks Can't Keep Some Employees From Leaving

#20

Outside the bubble of SV/Google, some of us accept free coffee (that we have to make ourselves) in the morning as a perk

I wouldn't call that "outside the bubble of SV/Google"; I would say that is "inside the bubble of working a crappy job". There are many companies outside SV/Google that offer far more perks than free coffee in the morning (and there are even SV companies like Intel that don't offer even that).
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