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The $2M Urinal: Why Hard Work Doesn’t Cut It (2018)

behavioralscientist.org

11–20 of 188 posts

Re: The $2M Urinal: Why Hard Work Doesn’t Cut It (2018)

#11
The story in the opening is probably apocryphal, and there is evidence Fountain is not the work of Duchamp, but of Baroness Elsa von Freytag-Loringhoven : >On 11 April 1917 Duchamp wrote to his sister Suzanne and said that, "One of my female friends who had adopted the pseudonym Richard Mutt sent me a porcelain urinal as a sculpture; since there was nothing indecent about it, there was no reason to reject it."

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/art/feature...

Re: The $2M Urinal: Why Hard Work Doesn’t Cut It (2018)

#12
post #7
post #5

I feel like modern art market is primarily a way for a subsegment of rich people to buy certain intangible goods: These are people that feel lonely, and have low self esteem... They really would like to socialize with cool and charismatic people, and the "modern art scene" is basically a very pricey matchmaking service for them to make friends and go to parties with people that fit this description (i.e. the artists)

What a weird and condescending take.

As well as naive. It's all about the 'market', not about the 'friends'.

Re: The $2M Urinal: Why Hard Work Doesn’t Cut It (2018)

#13
Very insightful! art definitely sure look like it is the prime example of how important networks are, in my opinion art is entirely subjective, no matter if we are talking if it's modern or not, we really can't measure it with objective standards.

I think this article kind of gave me an inspiration to go out and get involved more, I definitely worry too much about my performance in my field and not really on how I interact.

Re: The $2M Urinal: Why Hard Work Doesn’t Cut It (2018)

#14
post #9
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a weird and condescending take.

Why? It’s not strange to think that an old man in leveraged buyouts would be willing to spend some money to be catered to by a group of young, talented, attractive people... and if he’s rich enough or lucky enough, maybe even fuck a few of them.

Young, sure. Talented, maybe. But attractive is probably not what you're optimizing for if you're hanging out in the art scene. Might have better luck in the fashion world

Re: The $2M Urinal: Why Hard Work Doesn’t Cut It (2018)

#15
post #5

I feel like modern art market is primarily a way for a subsegment of rich people to buy certain intangible goods: These are people that feel lonely, and have low self esteem... They really would like to socialize with cool and charismatic people, and the "modern art scene" is basically a very pricey matchmaking service for them to make friends and go to parties with people that fit this description (i.e. the artists)

A good chunk of it is money laundering, private sale with cash are common in the art world

Another chunk is the exclusivity, these people can have everything and the hedonistic treadmill makes them miserable despite it all, so they always need more. The solution is to buy something nobody else can have

Re: The $2M Urinal: Why Hard Work Doesn’t Cut It (2018)

#16

> But I do mean to say that there is no quality in art. > The simple truth is we have no way of objectively determining the value of any work of art or the performance of its maker. Ehh... Not having objective, quantitative metrics is not the same thing as having no quality what so ever. It seems very strange (and utterly wrong) to claim there is not even a smidgen of underlying truth or insight about the world found…

>Ehh... Not having objective, quantitative metrics is not the same thing as having no quality what so ever.

I am shocked that in 2019 there are adults walking around with this epistemology. Every quantitative metric is an exercise in narrative. The notion of objectivity is an appealing construct in a world constructed by second hand observations, but alas, it remains just another implement in the narrative toolkit.

Re: The $2M Urinal: Why Hard Work Doesn’t Cut It (2018)

#17

> But I do mean to say that there is no quality in art. > The simple truth is we have no way of objectively determining the value of any work of art or the performance of its maker. Ehh... Not having objective, quantitative metrics is not the same thing as having no quality what so ever. It seems very strange (and utterly wrong) to claim there is not even a smidgen of underlying truth or insight about the world found…

I read it differently, but I don't think the author was saying art has no quality in the way you're interpreting it at the end of your sentence, in the sense of value or anything to offer. I interpreted them to mean that there's no way to objectively determinine that value, so practically speaking there's no objective quality in art. I think there's even a sentence or two where they try to make clear that they're not questioning art's value, just our ability to determine that value in real terms.

I agree that the author's choice of words was probably kind of poor. But I interpreted the article to mean that as it becomes more difficult to determine inherent worth in an area, success becomes more and more dependent on social networking effects per se. If you need a hammer, it has a specific function, and you can quantify that function in various ways. But if you're talking about something where the value is unknown, either because no one knows the ultimate truth, or because it's based on subjective experience or something, you can't quantify it, so you go back to networks.

This author has been making the rounds a bit in the last few years, and I think they've done research on these topics. Their argument is that network effects are very strong, and account for a lot of variability in outcomes that are popularly attributed to individuals (broadly defined).

Re: The $2M Urinal: Why Hard Work Doesn’t Cut It (2018)

#18
post #5

I feel like modern art market is primarily a way for a subsegment of rich people to buy certain intangible goods: These are people that feel lonely, and have low self esteem... They really would like to socialize with cool and charismatic people, and the "modern art scene" is basically a very pricey matchmaking service for them to make friends and go to parties with people that fit this description (i.e. the artists)

> These are people that feel lonely, and have low self esteem.

Slightly related:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6777961/Billionaire...

Re: The $2M Urinal: Why Hard Work Doesn’t Cut It (2018)

#19

Seth Godin has a great line about how the first person to put a urinal in an art museum was an artist, but the second person to do it was a plumber. It makes an interesting thought experiment about what makes art, what it means to be "creative", and how the world may (or may not) appreciate your work...

I strongly suspect art museums had sanitary plumbing long before it moved to the gallery area.

Grayson Perry has a far more insightful critique.

https://www.windsorflorida.com/app/uploads/2017/11/Grayson-P...

If you have £15,000 to spare you can buy a print and hang it on your wall.

Re: The $2M Urinal: Why Hard Work Doesn’t Cut It (2018)

#20

> The art world is a wonderful illustration of the First Law of Success: 'Performance drives success, but when performance can’t be measured, networks drive success.' This is a thought-provoking reframing of "it's not what you know; it's who you know."

Actually I think network will drive success even if talent has some measure - but if talent evens out the one with the better network will likely triumph.
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