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The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

theatlantic.com

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Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#11

Post by macinjosh »

empath75 wrote: post #3

I don't know why more tech companies don't do apprenticeships straight out of highschool. You can pay a high school student with some programming experience a fraction of the salary of a college graduate and it probably doesn't take that much longer to get them productive and they won't be saddled with student loan debt.

My best guess is that is due to HR and mangement wanting to cover their ass when making hiring decisions. If a candidate is hired and they don't do well they can appeal to the authority of the degree the candidate had to make their decision seem rational.

I went straight from high school to a very entry level web development job. I didn't have any chance at getting a job at a larger company but small web shops provided an opportunity for me since I could be hired at a low wage and the owner of the company was the one hiring me.

Now I am grateful to have moved up the ladder over 10 years time and I have a much higher paying job and no student debt.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#12

Post by flxb »

empath75 wrote: post #3

I don't know why more tech companies don't do apprenticeships straight out of highschool. You can pay a high school student with some programming experience a fraction of the salary of a college graduate and it probably doesn't take that much longer to get them productive and they won't be saddled with student loan debt.

I can imagine that graduates with the insecurity of student loan debt are more loyal to a secure job. A high school student that has been made productive can easily leave for a (riskier) more lucrative position.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#13

Post by sandworm101 »

empath75 wrote: post #3

I don't know why more tech companies don't do apprenticeships straight out of highschool. You can pay a high school student with some programming experience a fraction of the salary of a college graduate and it probably doesn't take that much longer to get them productive and they won't be saddled with student loan debt.

>>You can pay a high school student with some programming experience a fraction of the salary of a college graduate

Lol. Pay? A tech company willing to open its doors to highschool students need not fork over actual money. Just ask. You will be deluged with resumes. Running an internship program isn't about the money. It is about the hassle of administering it. Regardless of the economic numbers blasted on the news, getting a decent tech job is cutthroat. Highschool kids will kill to get tech company internship on their pre-collage resume.

Or you could do what Hollywood does and get the older, multi-year interns to supervise the junior ones.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#14

Post by IdiocyInAction »

arethuza wrote: post #10
IdiocyInAction wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people you would recruit that way would be way different than the people you recruit from college; it doesn't work very well. How do I know this? My country has an apprenticeship system and software developer is actually an option, but nobody does this because it doesn't work very well. My company tried it; the person failed to produce even very rudimentary programs. College really isn't about the education it pr…

YMMV The company I work for has taken on a few people through a apprenticeship scheme straight from high school and they've all been superb.

That's interesting, did you have any kind of pre-selection? What area was the job in? In my case, it was development of tooling in Java and C++.

It's not that I can't imagine it working - in fact, had I done an apprenticeship instead of a university degree, I doubt my output would be much different; it's just that it really didn't seem to work in our case.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#15

Post by dsfyu404ed »

sandworm101 wrote: post #9
bluedino wrote: post #2

Is 'video production' really a trade school? I think more of the blue-collar trades. Also, aren't video/music production classes like that usually the realm of for-profit schools like Full Sail and the job prospects dubious?

Between the rise of youtube, the porn industry, "peak" TV and the constant stream of CGI-based movies, there is plenty of work in video production. A degree doesn't really matter, but knowing how to use the tools does. Whether you get hands on the tools at a university or a college isn't an issue.

All of those examples have razor thin margins in the overwhelming majority of cases which translates to not actually paying that great for everyone involved. It's like acting. Few will people make big bucks. Ever wonder why "professional amatuer" porn is such a large share of the market? Less people to pay. Most Youtube channels that have actual costs per episode (e.g. every time Demolition Ranch mag dumps the Barret that costs about $20) are made by a couple people working for free and do weekly episodes in their spare time so they only have to recoup consumable costs.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#16

Post by WrtCdEvrydy »

macinjosh wrote: post #11
empath75 wrote: post #3

I don't know why more tech companies don't do apprenticeships straight out of highschool. You can pay a high school student with some programming experience a fraction of the salary of a college graduate and it probably doesn't take that much longer to get them productive and they won't be saddled with student loan debt.

My best guess is that is due to HR and mangement wanting to cover their ass when making hiring decisions. If a candidate is hired and they don't do well they can appeal to the authority of the degree the candidate had to make their decision seem rational. I went straight from high school to a very entry level web development job. I didn't have any chance at getting a job at a larger company but small web shops provid…

The degree opens doors, and it makes management people feel that it's a good predictor of outcomes but in my opinion from hiring, we found Curiosity, Ability to Learn, Ability to Listen to be the three best predictors of good outcomes.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#17

Post by arethuza »

IdiocyInAction wrote: post #14
arethuza wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

YMMV The company I work for has taken on a few people through a apprenticeship scheme straight from high school and they've all been superb.

That's interesting, did you have any kind of pre-selection? What area was the job in? In my case, it was development of tooling in Java and C++. It's not that I can't imagine it working - in fact, had I done an apprenticeship instead of a university degree, I doubt my output would be much different; it's just that it really didn't seem to work in our case.

I wasn't directly involved in the selection - but I know the team doing it were pretty selective. The folks involved also did a lot of training over a year or so.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#18

Post by ihm »

One thing that is always missing from these articles is the idea that it’s actually good for individuals (and for our society) to get an expansive view of human knowledge rather than a narrow training to turn you into a worker on a production line (or at a computer).

Of course right now that’s a path that’s not accessible to many people, and people may have other financial reasons for going to trade schools, but I think those are the issues we should fix. That is, make our society one where to be financially stable you don’t have to choose between a narrow training and an opportunity to explore the accumulated knowledge of the humanities and sciences.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#19

Post by fullshark »

empath75 wrote: post #3

I don't know why more tech companies don't do apprenticeships straight out of highschool. You can pay a high school student with some programming experience a fraction of the salary of a college graduate and it probably doesn't take that much longer to get them productive and they won't be saddled with student loan debt.

Poor return on investment given risks involved, you're better off offloading that cost of education/training to the individual and then just hiring them when they signal they are worthy of employment.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#20

Post by thanatropism »

sandworm101 wrote: post #9
bluedino wrote: post #2

Is 'video production' really a trade school? I think more of the blue-collar trades. Also, aren't video/music production classes like that usually the realm of for-profit schools like Full Sail and the job prospects dubious?

Between the rise of youtube, the porn industry, "peak" TV and the constant stream of CGI-based movies, there is plenty of work in video production. A degree doesn't really matter, but knowing how to use the tools does. Whether you get hands on the tools at a university or a college isn't an issue.

Then, more automation and even better UI will tend to reduce the labor-intensity of satisfying that demand.

Translation: fewer people will be needed.

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