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Indonesia reports reduced deforestation, triggering carbon payment from Norway

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Re: Indonesia reports reduced deforestation, triggering carbon payment from Norway

#11

Post by hannob »

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #5
StreamBright wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly what most Westerners do not get about China. If you want to reduce emissions stop buying their products.

And buy products from where instead? Is everything made in China uniformally disastrous for the environment? I was under the impression the easiest way for people, who live in developed nations, to reduce emissions is to eat less meat?

> And buy products from where instead?

Buy less products overall.

> I was under the impression the easiest way for people, who live in developed nations, to reduce emissions is to eat less meat?

The most effective thing is probably less carbon intensive transport (that means first and foremost flying). But less meat (or better no meat) is still among the more impactful things.

Re: Indonesia reports reduced deforestation, triggering carbon payment from Norway

#12

Post by est31 »

XorNot wrote: post #9
TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And buy products from where instead? Is everything made in China uniformally disastrous for the environment? I was under the impression the easiest way for people, who live in developed nations, to reduce emissions is to eat less meat?

It's less beef, specifically. On a practical level cutting out meat entirely can actually increase emissions because you can raise farm animals off of human inedible parts of plants like stems and other marginal food (i.e. parts we don't get any nutrition from). Beef however is one of the worst conversion methods in this regard, but animals like chickens and goats are quite efficient.

Insects are most efficient btw, but there are cultural reservations about them in the west.

Re: Indonesia reports reduced deforestation, triggering carbon payment from Norway

#13

Post by adrianN »

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #5
StreamBright wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly what most Westerners do not get about China. If you want to reduce emissions stop buying their products.

And buy products from where instead? Is everything made in China uniformally disastrous for the environment? I was under the impression the easiest way for people, who live in developed nations, to reduce emissions is to eat less meat?

Eating less meat is pretty high on the list [1]. But I think that for many people it is easier to buy less crap they don't really need, or to fix things instead of replacing them. Buying used instead of new is also an option.

[1] https://www.drawdown.org/solutions

Re: Indonesia reports reduced deforestation, triggering carbon payment from Norway

#15

Post by codebolt »

O_H_E wrote: post #6

Looks like a great way to incitive developing countries to reduce their emissions. Although when the developing countries' tax payer start complaining, it's going to be hard to defend these expenditures.

As a Norwegian tax payer I do feel a bit like a schmuck for paying Indonesians not to destroy their own country. For one, what's to stop them from cutting these forests once the payouts stop coming? A better endeavor might be to invest in environmentally sustainable industries in Indonesia.

Re: Indonesia reports reduced deforestation, triggering carbon payment from Norway

#16

Post by duopixel »

When I first moved to Europe I was struck by just how domesticated the land is. I can sleep in the open without being afraid of snakes, scorpions, spiders, wolves or bears. Even when land is "wild", the larger mammals will be rabbits, deer, wild goats and such. Excepting natural parks, hunters are the only predators.

At least in Spain, a tremendous percentage of land is put at the service of mankind. The dehesas give cork, honey, acorns to feed the pigs, and grass for the cattle.

The situation where developing countries need to conserve their land in a natural state in the interest of biodiversity and climate reminds me a game of Civilization where you are no longer allowed to exploit them to your advantage (with good reason!). We need to keep this land intact, but the only way to do it is to make conservation more valuable than exploitation.

Re: Indonesia reports reduced deforestation, triggering carbon payment from Norway

#17

Post by swebs »

samatman wrote: post #10
StreamBright wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly what most Westerners do not get about China. If you want to reduce emissions stop buying their products.

China is the sole producer of certain electronic components, this is not viable at present. Granted if you really really want to reduce your personal emissions, stop using technology from post-1950, maybe buy some land...

>China is the sole producer of certain electronic components, this is not viable at present.

Maybe we should increase tariffs on Chinese components to promote production elsewhere.

Re: Indonesia reports reduced deforestation, triggering carbon payment from Norway

#18

Post by lawlessone »

swebs wrote: post #17
samatman wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is the sole producer of certain electronic components, this is not viable at present. Granted if you really really want to reduce your personal emissions, stop using technology from post-1950, maybe buy some land...

>China is the sole producer of certain electronic components, this is not viable at present. Maybe we should increase tariffs on Chinese components to promote production elsewhere.

or take the more direct route and promote production elsewhere.

Re: Indonesia reports reduced deforestation, triggering carbon payment from Norway

#19

Post by richardhod »

codebolt wrote: post #15
O_H_E wrote: post #6

Looks like a great way to incitive developing countries to reduce their emissions. Although when the developing countries' tax payer start complaining, it's going to be hard to defend these expenditures.

As a Norwegian tax payer I do feel a bit like a schmuck for paying Indonesians not to destroy their own country. For one, what's to stop them from cutting these forests once the payouts stop coming? A better endeavor might be to invest in environmentally sustainable industries in Indonesia.

As a Western developed nation inhabitant, you and indeed most HN readers benefit enormously for your rich lifestyle on past carbon emissions by your predecessors, which those in that country have not benefitted from. This is a good way to incentivise those countries who - quite reasonably - feel it's unfair that they don't get to use up any of that carbon to develop their nation towards a rich modern lifestyles. So, here is one solution.

Re: Indonesia reports reduced deforestation, triggering carbon payment from Norway

#20

Post by nabla9 »

samatman wrote: post #10
StreamBright wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly what most Westerners do not get about China. If you want to reduce emissions stop buying their products.

China is the sole producer of certain electronic components, this is not viable at present. Granted if you really really want to reduce your personal emissions, stop using technology from post-1950, maybe buy some land...

> China is the sole producer of certain electronic components

I don't believe this is correct in meaningful sense. Do you have any examples?

China assembles many components, but that's not something that can't be moved to elsewhere. Vietnam is already replacing China.

Best way to deal with exported CO2 emissions is to put carbon tax on imports and not to try to control where they are manufactured.

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