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The Rest of Us Always Knew Churchill Was a Villain

bloomberg.com

11–20 of 151 posts

Re: The Rest of Us Always Knew Churchill Was a Villain

#11

This is garbage. The real villains are Neville Chamberlain and Lord Halifax. They would have condemned half a billion people to death just to give Britain a few extra years of peace.

Which part is garbage?

What do Chamberlain and Halifax have to do with whether Churchill is considered a villain?

Re: The Rest of Us Always Knew Churchill Was a Villain

#13

This is garbage. The real villains are Neville Chamberlain and Lord Halifax. They would have condemned half a billion people to death just to give Britain a few extra years of peace.

If you’re going to bring up their blunders you should perhaps also mention how Churchill completely cocked-up several crucial naval operations that could have ended the war early. If he was around today he’d be what they call a “failson”

Oh and then there’s the whole Indian famine thing...

Re: The Rest of Us Always Knew Churchill Was a Villain

#15
post #11

This is garbage. The real villains are Neville Chamberlain and Lord Halifax. They would have condemned half a billion people to death just to give Britain a few extra years of peace.

Which part is garbage? What do Chamberlain and Halifax have to do with whether Churchill is considered a villain?

Evidently fighting Nazis absolves you any crime against humanity.

Vae victis I suppose.

Edit: response to Ntrails:

People find comfort in black and white worldviews. Pointing out that somebody who was a hero in one respect was a villain in other seems to induce some sort of dissonance that gets some people angry. The article says that Churchill was a villain with respect to British colonies, not in every conceivable respect. But this has made some people angry, they see Churchill as a hero in the fight against Germany, so they're unwilling or unable to see Churchill as a villain in Ireland or India. There is no logical contradiction here, but there is an emotional contradiction. I don't consider this a moral failing on the part of those upset, it just seems to be how people are wired.

Re: The Rest of Us Always Knew Churchill Was a Villain

#16

This is garbage. The real villains are Neville Chamberlain and Lord Halifax. They would have condemned half a billion people to death just to give Britain a few extra years of peace.

If you’re going to bring up their blunders you should perhaps also mention how Churchill completely cocked-up several crucial naval operations that could have ended the war early. If he was around today he’d be what they call a “failson” Oh and then there’s the whole Indian famine thing...

Which naval operations? WW1 or WW2?

Re: The Rest of Us Always Knew Churchill Was a Villain

#17

> “History,” Churchill himself said, “will judge me kindly, because I intend to write it myself.” He did, penning a multi-volume history of World War Two, and won the Nobel Prize for Literature for his self-serving fictions. One of my favorite conspiracy theories is the idea that Churchill and Roosevelt conspired to allow the attack at Pearl Harbor to occur. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_Harbor_advance-knowledg…

I would not be surprised if this was true, or at least had a significant amount of truth to it. It reminds me of the Zimmermann telegram that brought the US into WW1. The UK and the US both knew that Mexico was not going to help Germany (what with a Mexican revolution going on and all that), but the telegram was a convenient enough excuse for the US to join the war in Europe anyway.

The parallel here is that the US and UK are both waiting for the enemy to make a huge blunder (Germany trying to get Mexico to attack the US, or Japan attacking Pearl Harbor). Getting the US into the war was one of the top priorities of Churchill's government. And Roosevelt really wanted to help (the Lend-Lease among other things).

So this information, that Japan is about to attack, comes along, why would you stop it? Plus; how would you stop it? You can argue that revealing it was about to happen publicly would be enough for President Roosevelt to argue a war against Japan. But maybe he felt if Japan actually got to attack, he could also argue for a war against Germany?

Re: The Rest of Us Always Knew Churchill Was a Villain

#18
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you’re going to bring up their blunders you should perhaps also mention how Churchill completely cocked-up several crucial naval operations that could have ended the war early. If he was around today he’d be what they call a “failson” Oh and then there’s the whole Indian famine thing...

Which naval operations? WW1 or WW2?

I am not sure what the parent specifically has in mind, but Churchill wasn't Navy Minister during WW2, and didn't have the same direct control over the navy like he did in WW1, where he really blundered through it.

Indeed, I might imagine the UK doing better in WW2, because Churchill was less in direct control of operations.

Re: The Rest of Us Always Knew Churchill Was a Villain

#19
post #8

Sounds like ideologic revisionism to me.

Only because we easily dismiss the evil perpetuated in the colonies, push those things under the rag, and revise history to rewrite Hitler as the only evil in the world.

It's understandable to some degree. After all, Churchill and colonialists just enslaved and killed inferior third world peoples (who cares about them), while Nazi Germany occupied and killed westerners...

Re: The Rest of Us Always Knew Churchill Was a Villain

#20

Meh. It's sad, but the structure of the universe is probably such that one cannot become a leader of millions without being a villain.

You can ignore any villainy by this formula. "All leaders are villains, so I'm turning my attention elsewhere." As Edmund Burke or someone said, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

Also, it relies on equating hard moral choices with villainy. A hard moral choice is making citizen A hungrier so citizen B doesn't starve. Villainy is robbing citizen A to enrich citizen B because you like B more.

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