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Opening the Filecoin Project Repos

filecoin.io

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Re: Opening the Filecoin Project Repos

#11

Post by rickycook »

ijpoijpoihpiuoh wrote: post #3
tribler wrote: post #2

The interesting bit: "Legal Compliance for Filecoin Storage Miners" https://github.com/filecoin-project/specs/issues/65 "In order to comply the with law, a miner who agreed to store the bad data must not serve it, and delete the data from its hard drive as soon as possible."

From your link. Storage miners can absolutely decline retrieval requests, at any time, for any reason. Storage miners have to be able to access the data themselves for the purposes of the PoSt, but since the PoSt is a zero knowledge proof, none of that data ever leaves the miner. The PoSt simply proves to everyone else that they actually have the data, without revealing the data (thats how we keep it compact). I foun…

from what i understand, you get a reward for serving the data, so you miss out on a good portion of bounty. you probably COULD attack the data like that, but it would cost you which might stop large scale attacks

*EDIT: and not just for serving it, but for serving it quickly.

from their site:

> Are you in the middle of a dense city? Do you have access to very fast Internet pipes? Have a rack in a carrier hotel? Perfect! In Filecoin's Retrieval Market, miners get rewarded for delivering content quickly. This makes the retrieval market good for miners who have low-latency, high-bandwidth connections to lots of users (but not necessarily the most disk space).

Re: Opening the Filecoin Project Repos

#12

Post by rickycook »

tribler wrote: post #6
ijpoijpoihpiuoh wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From your link. Storage miners can absolutely decline retrieval requests, at any time, for any reason. Storage miners have to be able to access the data themselves for the purposes of the PoSt, but since the PoSt is a zero knowledge proof, none of that data ever leaves the miner. The PoSt simply proves to everyone else that they actually have the data, without revealing the data (thats how we keep it compact). I foun…

Yes, that seems a possible attack. You can store stuff and pass the regular audits using "Proof-Of-Storage", yet refuse to upload bits when finally asked. Hard to protect systems from irrational attacks like that (we know from building a similar system). They are quite transparant about their "unsolved-problems": https://github.com/filecoin-project/specs/issues/63

see my reply to the parent; there’s a retrieval market too, which could help that issue

Re: Opening the Filecoin Project Repos

#13

Post by dangero »

fwip wrote: post #9

I'd love to finally see a writeup of the "proof of spacetime" storage. Understanding that proof seems critical to understanding what use cases FileCoin will and won't work for. Edit for clarity: This is the closest I was able to find, and is short on details. https://github.com/filecoin-project/specs/blob/master/proofs...

I'm interested in this as well. Failure scenarios for their system are data and financial loss.

For example, if there is a loophole in "proof of spacetime" then you might be paying for your data to be backed up 8 times and have it only backed up once. You find out that was the case only when that node disappears and your data is lost.

Re: Opening the Filecoin Project Repos

#14

Post by dlubarov »

tribler wrote: post #6
ijpoijpoihpiuoh wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From your link. Storage miners can absolutely decline retrieval requests, at any time, for any reason. Storage miners have to be able to access the data themselves for the purposes of the PoSt, but since the PoSt is a zero knowledge proof, none of that data ever leaves the miner. The PoSt simply proves to everyone else that they actually have the data, without revealing the data (thats how we keep it compact). I foun…

Yes, that seems a possible attack. You can store stuff and pass the regular audits using "Proof-Of-Storage", yet refuse to upload bits when finally asked. Hard to protect systems from irrational attacks like that (we know from building a similar system). They are quite transparant about their "unsolved-problems": https://github.com/filecoin-project/specs/issues/63

Why do you call that behavior irrational? Seems like it would save some bandwidth costs, as the parent suggests.

Re: Opening the Filecoin Project Repos

#15

Post by miguelmota »

A brief for anyone wondering what Filecoin is:

> Filecoin is a decentralized storage network that turns the world’s unused storage into an algorithmic market, creating a permanent, decentralized future for the web. Miners earn the native protocol token (also called “filecoin”) by providing data storage and/or retrieval. Clients pay miners to store or distribute data and to retrieve it.

Filecoin is a project of Protocol Labs which also created the DAG based hypermedia protocol IPFS.

Re: Opening the Filecoin Project Repos

#16

Post by wmf »

dlubarov wrote: post #14
tribler wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that seems a possible attack. You can store stuff and pass the regular audits using "Proof-Of-Storage", yet refuse to upload bits when finally asked. Hard to protect systems from irrational attacks like that (we know from building a similar system). They are quite transparant about their "unsolved-problems": https://github.com/filecoin-project/specs/issues/63

Why do you call that behavior irrational? Seems like it would save some bandwidth costs, as the parent suggests.

AFAIK nodes get paid for serving data and they can set the price to be higher than their bandwidth costs, so refusing to serve data is refusing to make money.

Re: Opening the Filecoin Project Repos

#17

Post by gcbw2 »

fwip wrote: post #9

I'd love to finally see a writeup of the "proof of spacetime" storage. Understanding that proof seems critical to understanding what use cases FileCoin will and won't work for. Edit for clarity: This is the closest I was able to find, and is short on details. https://github.com/filecoin-project/specs/blob/master/proofs...

The proof of storage is even trickier.

A multi-account attack (sybil?) can just store the file once, and pretend to store it N times, inflating the cost (attacker revenue) by N fold. I can't see how this is avoidable other than being an authority with insight into most of the internet traffic structure. ...Maybe it is designed to only work within china?

last question was a joke, but note that every single multi-account protection requires a breach of anonymity. That's why most modern distributed protocols try to completely work around any benefit of having multiple accounts. Storage, by definition, can't.

Re: Opening the Filecoin Project Repos

#18

Post by baby »

miguelmota wrote: post #15

A brief for anyone wondering what Filecoin is: > Filecoin is a decentralized storage network that turns the world’s unused storage into an algorithmic market, creating a permanent, decentralized future for the web. Miners earn the native protocol token (also called “filecoin”) by providing data storage and/or retrieval. Clients pay miners to store or distribute data and to retrieve it. Filecoin is a project of Protoc…

If you add compression, it is pied piper.

Re: Opening the Filecoin Project Repos

#19

Post by whyrusleeping »

gcbw2 wrote: post #17
fwip wrote: post #9

I'd love to finally see a writeup of the "proof of spacetime" storage. Understanding that proof seems critical to understanding what use cases FileCoin will and won't work for. Edit for clarity: This is the closest I was able to find, and is short on details. https://github.com/filecoin-project/specs/blob/master/proofs...

The proof of storage is even trickier. A multi-account attack (sybil?) can just store the file once, and pretend to store it N times, inflating the cost (attacker revenue) by N fold. I can't see how this is avoidable other than being an authority with insight into most of the internet traffic structure. ...Maybe it is designed to only work within china? last question was a joke, but note that every single multi-accou…

The proof of replication provides assurance that for some given data D, a unique replica R is created for it. What you’re proving with the Proof of SpaceTime isn’t that you have some data, you’re proving that you have the replicas. Generating the replica is slow, so you can’t do it on the fly. I gave a talk recently that goes over some of this briefly: https://youtu.be/GZZ2G9bPXsM

Re: Opening the Filecoin Project Repos

#20

Post by gammateam »

miguelmota wrote: post #15

A brief for anyone wondering what Filecoin is: > Filecoin is a decentralized storage network that turns the world’s unused storage into an algorithmic market, creating a permanent, decentralized future for the web. Miners earn the native protocol token (also called “filecoin”) by providing data storage and/or retrieval. Clients pay miners to store or distribute data and to retrieve it. Filecoin is a project of Protoc…

Protocol Labs wont integrate filecoin use into IPFS?
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