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Facebook's data gathering hit by German anti-trust clampdown

reuters.com

11–20 of 56 posts

Re: Facebook's data gathering hit by German anti-trust clampdown

#11

Facebook's statement is... interesting. > The Bundeskartellamt underestimates the fierce competition we face in Germany Which competition? The only viable social network in Germany that came close to Facebook was Lokalisten, which shuttered finally in 2016.

Domestic data hoarders and advertisers - extremely invasive and territorial. The difference is that none of them runs social networking website or mobile messenger app, thus without consumer facing facade many uninformed assume they don't exist. e.g. their media and retail oligopolies like to roll out their own ad, tracking, and loyalty programs to have full control of the data. They don't let anyone in and are tryin…

Care to provide some details? because FB considers YouTube, Twitter, and the likes as that competition but you may know more.

Re: Facebook's data gathering hit by German anti-trust clampdown

#12
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Facebook's response is without question following Peter Thiel's monopolist argumentation position. If you're a monopolist, widen your pool of competition to include anything you possibly can. If your employees consume fruit at work, proclaim you're competing with Chiquita bananas (and have a tiny share of the fruit market). If your employees ever fly on planes, proclaim your position in jets is terribly weak next to…

Does this argument really work? Nobody says that Facebook has a monpoly in everything they do. They say that they have a monopoly in a very specific area, which should be enough for antritrust lawsuits. I'm pretty sure that AT&T and Standard Oil also had branches that did not have a monopoly in their respective areas, but that didn't stop the splitting of the companies.

Microsoft aggressively deployed it in the 1990s with the US Government. It didn't work at all ultimately. Nobody outside of Microsoft's management bought into the premise (they either didn't actually buy into it either, or they were wildly delusional, hard to tell which it really was). Once the DOJ took the Microsoft case seriously, they cut through Microsoft's fluff like a buzzsaw.

It doesn't work very well at all with a determined government, which will zero in on specific market abuses (rather than getting caught up in bullshit PR fluff). Primarily it's one part PR play with the public brand & image, and one part time delay. Facebook would love nothing more than to have an opportunity to burn years of time by being given a chance to argue round and round about all the competition they face.

Microsoft laughably couldn't stop repeating how they were fighting for their right to innovate (which eg had next to nothing to do with their serious OEM abuses). Every other word out of Gates and Ballmer's mouths for years was a variation of innovation. They beat that drum to death, it made no difference. They tried playing the widen the competition pool card over and over again, that also made zero difference.

No serious regulator will ever believe the competition everywhere premise. I generally don't believe it's aimed at actually convincing a serious regulator, either. The sharks that work for giants like Facebook know it's not an actual strong legal argument, which is why I believe it's one part stall tactic and one part public image support. There's a small chance it could cause some skepticism among less determined regulators as a fluke benefit.

Re: Facebook's data gathering hit by German anti-trust clampdown

#13
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Domestic data hoarders and advertisers - extremely invasive and territorial. The difference is that none of them runs social networking website or mobile messenger app, thus without consumer facing facade many uninformed assume they don't exist. e.g. their media and retail oligopolies like to roll out their own ad, tracking, and loyalty programs to have full control of the data. They don't let anyone in and are tryin…

Care to provide some details? because FB considers YouTube, Twitter, and the likes as that competition but you may know more.

Americans are smarter - they provide this bait-facade of "usefulness", Germans are more direct and down-to-the-business e.g. there are billboards on the streets of German cities with "privacy campaigns" actively agitating against Facebook, country-wide hysteria against social networks (or even internet in general). Someone certainly pays for it - articles, billboards, etc are not a volunteer work.

Re: Facebook's data gathering hit by German anti-trust clampdown

#14

Facebook's statement is... interesting. > The Bundeskartellamt underestimates the fierce competition we face in Germany Which competition? The only viable social network in Germany that came close to Facebook was Lokalisten, which shuttered finally in 2016.

Well, that statement is essentially a strawman. Even IF Facebook does face competition - it doesn't mean they should be allowed to violate privacy.

Re: Facebook's data gathering hit by German anti-trust clampdown

#15
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does this argument really work? Nobody says that Facebook has a monpoly in everything they do. They say that they have a monopoly in a very specific area, which should be enough for antritrust lawsuits. I'm pretty sure that AT&T and Standard Oil also had branches that did not have a monopoly in their respective areas, but that didn't stop the splitting of the companies.

Microsoft aggressively deployed it in the 1990s with the US Government. It didn't work at all ultimately. Nobody outside of Microsoft's management bought into the premise (they either didn't actually buy into it either, or they were wildly delusional, hard to tell which it really was). Once the DOJ took the Microsoft case seriously, they cut through Microsoft's fluff like a buzzsaw. It doesn't work very well at all w…

The only thing I would add is that it serves as a convenient figleaf for regulators and policy advocates who are politically or ideologically friendly to monopolists, of whom there are no shortage in the US at least

Re: Facebook's data gathering hit by German anti-trust clampdown

#16

If I remember correctly Facebook was only allowed to buy Whatsapp in France because they promised not to share user data between the two services. The German data protection agency basically didn't say anything only because the french said it already. Now Facebook does it's mix-and-mash anyways. I'd have expected to hear something out of France about this. Did I just miss it?

Too many anti-trust agencies seem to have a "Oh well, what's done is done, what can you do now?!" attitude towards violations.

If one of the primary conditions of the merger was that WhatsApp was not allowed to share user data with FB, and then FB goes ahead and does it anyway (even before ever prompting users to agree with this), then that should be all the reason the agencies need to order the split of WhatsApp from Facebook.

Because they don't take this seriously enough is exactly why Facebook is now attempting to further integrate Facebook, Instagram and WhatsApp, so that a few years down the road when the shit will really hit the fan, FB would be able to claim that the disintegration of the services is "impossible" at that point and/or get those platforms' users to raise hell against their politicians for attempting to do that.

Re: Facebook's data gathering hit by German anti-trust clampdown

#17
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Care to provide some details? because FB considers YouTube, Twitter, and the likes as that competition but you may know more.

Americans are smarter - they provide this bait-facade of "usefulness", Germans are more direct and down-to-the-business e.g. there are billboards on the streets of German cities with "privacy campaigns" actively agitating against Facebook, country-wide hysteria against social networks (or even internet in general). Someone certainly pays for it - articles, billboards, etc are not a volunteer work.

I'm sure someone must pay. But I can make assumptions all by myself with little to no help. What I could really use are details, facts, evidence. So I'm forced to reiterate, care to provide some?

I don't mean evidence that people want more privacy and someone is paying/putting up billboards advocating this. Do you have some evidence (anything) that these yet unnamed companies are behind a strategy to stain FB's image (as if it were needed) in order to have the privacy violation market all to the themselves?

Can you at least name one of these companies? Or maybe a hint on why Facebook doesn't even acknowledge this enemy?

Re: Facebook's data gathering hit by German anti-trust clampdown

#18

Facebook's statement is... interesting. > The Bundeskartellamt underestimates the fierce competition we face in Germany Which competition? The only viable social network in Germany that came close to Facebook was Lokalisten, which shuttered finally in 2016.

Well, that statement is essentially a strawman. Even IF Facebook does face competition - it doesn't mean they should be allowed to violate privacy.

Not under anti-trust law (German "Kartellrecht"), where market concentration and competition are primary factors.

Re: Facebook's data gathering hit by German anti-trust clampdown

#19
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Care to provide some details? because FB considers YouTube, Twitter, and the likes as that competition but you may know more.

Americans are smarter - they provide this bait-facade of "usefulness", Germans are more direct and down-to-the-business e.g. there are billboards on the streets of German cities with "privacy campaigns" actively agitating against Facebook, country-wide hysteria against social networks (or even internet in general). Someone certainly pays for it - articles, billboards, etc are not a volunteer work.

> articles, billboards, etc are not a volunteer work.

Are you sure? It's unusual but not impossible. It ought to be possible to find out who is paying for them.

Re: Facebook's data gathering hit by German anti-trust clampdown

#20

Facebook's statement is... interesting. > The Bundeskartellamt underestimates the fierce competition we face in Germany Which competition? The only viable social network in Germany that came close to Facebook was Lokalisten, which shuttered finally in 2016.

Domestic data hoarders and advertisers - extremely invasive and territorial. The difference is that none of them runs social networking website or mobile messenger app, thus without consumer facing facade many uninformed assume they don't exist. e.g. their media and retail oligopolies like to roll out their own ad, tracking, and loyalty programs to have full control of the data. They don't let anyone in and are tryin…

What does "other data collectors exist" have to do with Facebook's status as the dominating social network (95% (measuring DAUs)/80% (measuring MAUs) market share according to the press release)? Facebook also clearly cites other social media companies/networks from a wider scope in defense, not data collectors.
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