Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Thoughts on Toxic Masculinity

bitsnbytes.blog

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–17 of 17 posts

Re: Thoughts on Toxic Masculinity

#11

Post by krapp »

belorn wrote: post #10
krapp wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Even the social and cultural norms imposed on men don't require bad behavior. They kind of sometimes do, though. The items on the "negative" list in the article are often reinforced by cultural pressures and stereotypes associated with masculinity and "manhood." To simply focus on individual bad behaviors by people who happen to be men is to ignore the societal and cultural weight of masculinity and the negative fee…

When I see people use phrases like "toxic masculinity" I always inject the idea of "toxic Muslim faith". It maps so directly to the language people use around masculinity, and yet most people who would use the phrase "toxic masculinity" want to see themselves as tolerant. There are a lot of negative aspects of Muslim faith, terrorism being one, that are reinforced by cultural pressures and stereotypes associated with…

Fair enough, and I don't want to even attempt to open the can of worms about whether "toxic Islam" exists and whether it is an expression of toxic masculinity, given the patriarchal nature of Islamic cultures and the gender roles enforced by Abrahamic religions, so on and so forth.

But the objections here still aren't to the premise, but the term. Meanwhile, women just want to live in a society that doesn't demean them, deny them agency over their bodies or which uses violence against them as social currency. It seems petty that the only response many men seem to have is that it's mean and hurts their feelings.

Call it what you want, call it something else, it's still a real thing.

Re: Thoughts on Toxic Masculinity

#12

Post by belorn »

krapp wrote: post #11
belorn wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I see people use phrases like "toxic masculinity" I always inject the idea of "toxic Muslim faith". It maps so directly to the language people use around masculinity, and yet most people who would use the phrase "toxic masculinity" want to see themselves as tolerant. There are a lot of negative aspects of Muslim faith, terrorism being one, that are reinforced by cultural pressures and stereotypes associated with…

Fair enough, and I don't want to even attempt to open the can of worms about whether "toxic Islam" exists and whether it is an expression of toxic masculinity, given the patriarchal nature of Islamic cultures and the gender roles enforced by Abrahamic religions, so on and so forth. But the objections here still aren't to the premise, but the term. Meanwhile, women just want to live in a society that doesn't demean th…

What we heard primarily from people favoring restrictions against Muslims such as the travel ban, is the need for security against the bad behavior which is associated with the targeted demographic.

It was not petty when Muslims only response to the travel ban was to get their feelings hurt. They can not accept the framing of the narrative that all Muslims are responsible for terrorism any more than men can accept that all men are responsible for sexism. It is impossible to have a civil discussion with such starting point and thus what we get is a singular response of objection to the narrative rather than a civil debate about the real down to earth problems that society has and how to fix them. Only by removing the framing around the demographic and focusing on the individual can any real progress be had.

> whether "toxic Islam" exists and whether it is an expression of toxic masculinity

Or maybe "toxic masculinity" is an expression of religion, given religion role in defining gender roles. Opium of the people and all that jazz.

Re: Thoughts on Toxic Masculinity

#13

Post by krapp »

belorn wrote: post #12
krapp wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough, and I don't want to even attempt to open the can of worms about whether "toxic Islam" exists and whether it is an expression of toxic masculinity, given the patriarchal nature of Islamic cultures and the gender roles enforced by Abrahamic religions, so on and so forth. But the objections here still aren't to the premise, but the term. Meanwhile, women just want to live in a society that doesn't demean th…

What we heard primarily from people favoring restrictions against Muslims such as the travel ban, is the need for security against the bad behavior which is associated with the targeted demographic. It was not petty when Muslims only response to the travel ban was to get their feelings hurt. They can not accept the framing of the narrative that all Muslims are responsible for terrorism any more than men can accept th…

>Or maybe "toxic masculinity" is an expression of religion, given religion role in defining gender roles. Opium of the people and all that jazz.

I think it's more that toxic masculinity is an expression of culture as informed by religion.

Many of the negative archetypes around women in the west (woman as deceiver, woman as seductress) derive from Genesis, and beliefs that women should naturally be subservient to men (literally, that woman is to man as man is to God) derive from the New Testament. Political conflicts and power struggles between the Church and Crown denied women rights as an attempt to control property rights and inheritance, codifying gender prejudice into law and social strata. Traditional gender roles and expectations in this case evolved from these status and class roles and the Christian ideals they were based on, which viewed women as property, viewed womens' bodies as inherently sinful and womens' sexuality as being taboo unless it served men.

These attitudes persisted with the secularization of the west and manifested through media and pop culture by way of the male gaze[0] and rape culture[1] which normalize the portrayal of women as sex objects, and of sexual aggression and violence against women as a healthy expression of manhood and signal of virility and status, or else blames women for their own victimhood.

...all of which just describes toxic masculinity in different terms.

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_gaze

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_culture

Re: Thoughts on Toxic Masculinity

#14

Post by belorn »

krapp wrote: post #13
belorn wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What we heard primarily from people favoring restrictions against Muslims such as the travel ban, is the need for security against the bad behavior which is associated with the targeted demographic. It was not petty when Muslims only response to the travel ban was to get their feelings hurt. They can not accept the framing of the narrative that all Muslims are responsible for terrorism any more than men can accept th…

>Or maybe "toxic masculinity" is an expression of religion, given religion role in defining gender roles. Opium of the people and all that jazz. I think it's more that toxic masculinity is an expression of culture as informed by religion. Many of the negative archetypes around women in the west (woman as deceiver, woman as seductress) derive from Genesis, and beliefs that women should naturally be subservient to men…

If we look at the Abrahamic religions we see a lot of support of violence, hate and general unpleasantness. If we wanted to support the idea that everything that is wrong with the world is caused by Muslims we only need to pick some quotes from the Quran that shows a belief that violence is acceptable against non-believers. It all describes toxic Muslim faith but in different terms.

In the end through, talking about terrorism by framing it as part of Muslim faith is not an effective method to bring civil discussion and progress in eliminating terrorism. All it does it nourishing hate and polarization in society which in turn result in increased risk of terrorism. It forces people, Muslims in the case of toxic Muslim faith, to defend themselves regardless if they are terrorists or not and distance themselves with those who work against terrorism. If one want to actually eliminate terrorism it is better to avoid associating Muslim faith with terrorism and instead focus fully on the individuals that do the act of terrorism.

We could be standing all day long talking about how a secularization of the middle east has normalized the idea that a healthy expression of Muslim faith is to slit the throat of unbelievers and blowing up bombs, or blame the west for their own victimhood. With the full knowledge that this will not help in reducing terrorism and only hurt those that identify as a Muslim and are not terrorist, why continue with such narrative? Why cause harm?

Re: Thoughts on Toxic Masculinity

#15

Post by krapp »

belorn wrote: post #14
krapp wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Or maybe "toxic masculinity" is an expression of religion, given religion role in defining gender roles. Opium of the people and all that jazz. I think it's more that toxic masculinity is an expression of culture as informed by religion. Many of the negative archetypes around women in the west (woman as deceiver, woman as seductress) derive from Genesis, and beliefs that women should naturally be subservient to men…

If we look at the Abrahamic religions we see a lot of support of violence, hate and general unpleasantness. If we wanted to support the idea that everything that is wrong with the world is caused by Muslims we only need to pick some quotes from the Quran that shows a belief that violence is acceptable against non-believers. It all describes toxic Muslim faith but in different terms. In the end through, talking about…

>why continue with such narrative? Why cause harm?

Because toxic masculinity exists, and it causes greater harm than wounds to the ego. Refusing to address the subject except through analogy only serves to create a false impression of the nature of the arguments being made, and to distract from the subject at hand. Pretending it doesn't exist as a systemic phenomenon only serves the status quo.

Even if using the phrase will only result in men being defensive and getting triggered by it. It exists regardless, and society if left to its own devices will probably do nothing about it, or the harm that it causes, unless confronted and dragged kicking and screaming into a more just and equitable future.

It is incorrect to claim that everything wrong with the world is caused by Muslims, but no one is making an equivalent claim about everything wrong with the world being caused by men or masculinity. It is incorrect to equate Islam with terrorism, but it is correct to equate toxic masculinity with male culture, because the two relationships are not perfectly equivalent, and not all analogies between them apply. And to cut to the chase, and what I believe is the intended implication of the equivalency you're trying to draw here, feminist critique is not equivalent to bigotry.

So if you disagree with me, as you seem to (and fair enough,) then perhaps you could address the subject on its own terms?

Re: Thoughts on Toxic Masculinity

#16

Post by belorn »

krapp wrote: post #15
belorn wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we look at the Abrahamic religions we see a lot of support of violence, hate and general unpleasantness. If we wanted to support the idea that everything that is wrong with the world is caused by Muslims we only need to pick some quotes from the Quran that shows a belief that violence is acceptable against non-believers. It all describes toxic Muslim faith but in different terms. In the end through, talking about…

>why continue with such narrative? Why cause harm? Because toxic masculinity exists, and it causes greater harm than wounds to the ego. Refusing to address the subject except through analogy only serves to create a false impression of the nature of the arguments being made, and to distract from the subject at hand. Pretending it doesn't exist as a systemic phenomenon only serves the status quo. Even if using the phra…

Refusing to address the issue is the catch phrase of the far rights view about immigration. It is a poor argument for hate speech regardless if it target someone based on gender or race.

And no, status quo is not served by active addressing the issue rather than mud slinging. It is a well established fact that immigrants has a higher rate of crime and sexual assault. To take Swedish numbers, a Muslim immigrant is 1000% more likely to commit rape than a christian born Sweden. Refusing to debase the discussing by focusing on race and religious demographics does not mean Sweden ignore rape, nor that it is pretending that the problem does not exist (which the far right constantly accuse the government of). Instead the government create policy that address segregation, low income and other factors that plays into crime regardless of skin color or religious faith. A far cry from refusing to address the issue and serving the status quo.

We know how to take the high road in regard to racism, and as a bonus it actually work. Feminist critique when used as an excuse for hate speech does neither. "Toxic masculinity" is misandry, plain and simple, and by continuing with such language all we get is more hate rather than effective policies that address the problems at hand.

That is the disagreement I have with you.

Re: Thoughts on Toxic Masculinity

#17

Post by krapp »

belorn wrote: post #16
krapp wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>why continue with such narrative? Why cause harm? Because toxic masculinity exists, and it causes greater harm than wounds to the ego. Refusing to address the subject except through analogy only serves to create a false impression of the nature of the arguments being made, and to distract from the subject at hand. Pretending it doesn't exist as a systemic phenomenon only serves the status quo. Even if using the phra…

Refusing to address the issue is the catch phrase of the far rights view about immigration. It is a poor argument for hate speech regardless if it target someone based on gender or race. And no, status quo is not served by active addressing the issue rather than mud slinging. It is a well established fact that immigrants has a higher rate of crime and sexual assault. To take Swedish numbers, a Muslim immigrant is 100…

Alright, I can see we can't even agree on terms here, so I'm going to bow out.

Thanks for the mature discussion on the topic, though. Even though I disagree with you I'm glad you put more effort in than the usual casual dismissals and snark this sort of thread usually attracts.

Post reply on HN