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A New Theory Proposes That Humans Tamed Themselves

theatlantic.com

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Re: A New Theory Proposes That Humans Tamed Themselves

#11

Post by krustyburger »

c3534l wrote: post #9

New? This was part of the philosophy in Fight Club. I remember hearing Chuck Palahniuk talk about it. Ted Kaczynski (of all people) believed humans had domesticated ourselves. I'm not sure what to make of an article that boldly claims "Wrangham grapples fully for the first time" with a theory older than I am. Certainly the author of the article didn't do his homework. Perhaps in the book the author acknowledges he di…

From TFA: “In fact, Wrangham’s notion of human evolution powered by self-domestication has an ancient lineage: The basic idea was first proposed by a disciple of Aristotle’s named Theophrastus and has been debated several times since the 18th century. This latest version, too, is bound to provoke controversy, but that’s what bold theorizing is supposed to do.“

Re: A New Theory Proposes That Humans Tamed Themselves

#12

Post by duckerude »

c3534l wrote: post #9

New? This was part of the philosophy in Fight Club. I remember hearing Chuck Palahniuk talk about it. Ted Kaczynski (of all people) believed humans had domesticated ourselves. I'm not sure what to make of an article that boldly claims "Wrangham grapples fully for the first time" with a theory older than I am. Certainly the author of the article didn't do his homework. Perhaps in the book the author acknowledges he di…

This is in the book:

> The notion that humans are a domesticated species is at least as old as ancient Greece. [...] Two thousand years later, the topic of human domestication re-emerged in the intuitions of an influential early anthropologist, Johann Friedrich Blumenbach.

And this is in the article:

> In fact, Wrangham’s notion of human evolution powered by self-domestication has an ancient lineage: The basic idea was first proposed by a disciple of Aristotle’s named Theophrastus and has been debated several times since the 18th century.

Re: A New Theory Proposes That Humans Tamed Themselves

#13

Post by aklemm »

navaati wrote: post #5
danieltillett wrote: post #3

This is the old theory that the nobility domesticated peasants while the peasants were domesticating animals.

In my reading of the TFA, it's not. It's the idea that less aggressive individual were naturally selected, partly via sexual selection of the males by the females, partly by pruning of the most violent individuals by the whole group. Nothing to do with the domestication of one group by another.

How do we get another round of that?

Re: A New Theory Proposes That Humans Tamed Themselves

#14

Post by phkahler »

navaati wrote: post #5
danieltillett wrote: post #3

This is the old theory that the nobility domesticated peasants while the peasants were domesticating animals.

In my reading of the TFA, it's not. It's the idea that less aggressive individual were naturally selected, partly via sexual selection of the males by the females, partly by pruning of the most violent individuals by the whole group. Nothing to do with the domestication of one group by another.

>> It's the idea that less aggressive individual were naturally selected, partly via sexual selection of the males by the females, partly by pruning of the most violent individuals by the whole group.

Not buying the notion of females selecting more docile males. Women almost unversally tend to be attracted to alpha male characteristics and often get into trouble chasing that type of guy. The ones who want more docile men are often those who got burned by someone at the far end of the aggression spectrum. This is a form of selection, but it's not a mechanism that would change females natural preferences.

Re: A New Theory Proposes That Humans Tamed Themselves

#15

Post by Charlaxy »

phkahler wrote: post #14
navaati wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my reading of the TFA, it's not. It's the idea that less aggressive individual were naturally selected, partly via sexual selection of the males by the females, partly by pruning of the most violent individuals by the whole group. Nothing to do with the domestication of one group by another.

>> It's the idea that less aggressive individual were naturally selected, partly via sexual selection of the males by the females, partly by pruning of the most violent individuals by the whole group. Not buying the notion of females selecting more docile males. Women almost unversally tend to be attracted to alpha male characteristics and often get into trouble chasing that type of guy. The ones who want more docile…

What is the effect of males selecting for docile females on future sons and daughters? Or do you believe that males aren't discriminating?

Re: A New Theory Proposes That Humans Tamed Themselves

#16

Post by devit »

phkahler wrote: post #14
navaati wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my reading of the TFA, it's not. It's the idea that less aggressive individual were naturally selected, partly via sexual selection of the males by the females, partly by pruning of the most violent individuals by the whole group. Nothing to do with the domestication of one group by another.

>> It's the idea that less aggressive individual were naturally selected, partly via sexual selection of the males by the females, partly by pruning of the most violent individuals by the whole group. Not buying the notion of females selecting more docile males. Women almost unversally tend to be attracted to alpha male characteristics and often get into trouble chasing that type of guy. The ones who want more docile…

The thing is that if you are an established "alpha male" either in the hierarchical sense or in the sense that you are self-sufficient, there is little need to engage in intra-group aggression, and in fact that would likely be detrimental as others are more likely to want to strip you of leadership roles if you are violent to them.

So it's quite possible (but uncertain) that women are attracted to dominance and leadership but not so much to physical violence itself, especially if the women does not think it serves any purpose, or if it shows weakness ("can't get any respect, so resorts to physical violence").

Re: A New Theory Proposes That Humans Tamed Themselves

#17

Post by gumby »

Filligree wrote: post #8
sshine wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His theory of evolution has at least become mainstream in parts of the world.

Are you sure you aren't mistaking him for Darwin?

I assume sshine was talking about Freud's conjectures on evolutionary biology and the evolutionary conservatism of archaic structures in the brain.

Much of that work is on its surface unremarkable today, though not at the time. But as it wasn't really central to his most influential work, it also hasn't been (IMHO) particularly influential

Re: A New Theory Proposes That Humans Tamed Themselves

#18

Post by ganzuul »

Filligree wrote: post #8
sshine wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His theory of evolution has at least become mainstream in parts of the world.

Are you sure you aren't mistaking him for Darwin?

It isn't a novel idea of Darwin's: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_evolutionary_thou...

Re: A New Theory Proposes That Humans Tamed Themselves

#19

Post by phkahler »

devit wrote: post #16
phkahler wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> It's the idea that less aggressive individual were naturally selected, partly via sexual selection of the males by the females, partly by pruning of the most violent individuals by the whole group. Not buying the notion of females selecting more docile males. Women almost unversally tend to be attracted to alpha male characteristics and often get into trouble chasing that type of guy. The ones who want more docile…

The thing is that if you are an established "alpha male" either in the hierarchical sense or in the sense that you are self-sufficient, there is little need to engage in intra-group aggression, and in fact that would likely be detrimental as others are more likely to want to strip you of leadership roles if you are violent to them. So it's quite possible (but uncertain) that women are attracted to dominance and leade…

>> So it's quite possible (but uncertain) that women are attracted to dominance and leadership but not so much to physical violence itself, especially if the women does not think it serves any purpose, or if it shows weakness

Somewhat agreed. Some women enjoy watching physical male violence in various forms and circumstances - particularly if it involves protecting them or their children. Confidence pushed to the extreme ends to look like arrogance. Taking action can look like aggression. Face it, if you're a female and want your genes to survive, who should you mate with? Someone who can make their own way in the world and can defend himself against threats. The undesirable (to others) extreme of that is to leave a path of carnage in your wake (excessive dominance).

>> The thing is that if you are an established "alpha male" either in the hierarchical sense or in the sense that you are self-sufficient, there is little need to engage in intra-group aggression...

There may not be a need for it, but if that's what it took to get established what makes you think someone is going to turn that crap off? See Trump as an example. There's a lot of overlap between the desirable and undesirable traits - so much so that I don't think biological "instinct" is refined enough to tell the difference in many cases.

Re: A New Theory Proposes That Humans Tamed Themselves

#20

Post by zamalek »

Charlaxy wrote: post #15
phkahler wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> It's the idea that less aggressive individual were naturally selected, partly via sexual selection of the males by the females, partly by pruning of the most violent individuals by the whole group. Not buying the notion of females selecting more docile males. Women almost unversally tend to be attracted to alpha male characteristics and often get into trouble chasing that type of guy. The ones who want more docile…

What is the effect of males selecting for docile females on future sons and daughters? Or do you believe that males aren't discriminating?

Thousands to tens of thousands of years ago, who knows? This article isn't about modern society and modern problems.
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