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For now at least, China's citizens are embracing social-credit systems

bloomberg.com

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Re: For now at least, China's citizens are embracing social-credit systems

#11

Post by abc-xyz »

It's important to realize that lack of public outcry/protests, or even public approval, does not necessarily mean that they support it. All my Chinese Tsinghua/Peking friends (20+) find it horrifying, yet many of them will find ways to show support for both this and other government propaganda, because they realize doing so will be beneficial for their future (even those who don't realize the government is building a profile based on everything they've ever said can still find value in sharing the propaganda because their friends, family, coworkers, teachers and bosses will see that they're "patriots").

Why should they risk their future/life fighting for something they don't believe they have the ability to change? It's like asking, why weren't the Germans resisting Hitler's government? It's easier said than done, heck, I even feel worried about posting these comments even though I don't live in China anymore and have no intention of ever going back.

Re: For now at least, China's citizens are embracing social-credit systems

#13

Post by DeonPenny »

droithomme wrote: post #2

In the US we have all this as well, we just are secretive about it and people don't know the rules. China is more transparent and open about it. Both systems are dystopian big brother to some, yet utopian to many others.

[flagged]

Re: For now at least, China's citizens are embracing social-credit systems

#14

Post by nerbert »

onion2k wrote: post #7

As the article itself points out, the Chinese media is full of stories about Chinese people being targets of scams by food producers, eCommerce companies selling fakes, and scams by one another (dating scams and so on). These social-credit surveillance programs have been marketed to the people they're aimed at as a benefit that protects them from potential crime. It's the same everywhere - here in the UK we have the…

In normal countries you have a strong civil society & consumer associations that have the teeth to bite these scammers.

Re: For now at least, China's citizens are embracing social-credit systems

#15

Post by new_here »

Interesting article about a topic that Westerners generally find dystopian.

However, it didn’t make much mention about how this system can and has been abused to punish dissidents (e.g. feminists) and how citizens with low social credit can redeem themselves. From other articles about cases I’ve read the rules seem to be quite opaque and somewhat subjective to whims of the enforcers.

Re: For now at least, China's citizens are embracing social-credit systems

#16

Post by vbtemp »

teekert wrote: post #6
est wrote: post #5

Because in really many chinese people cheat. And cheaters are so rampant that people would rather ask Big Brother to step up. China started this national wide 诚信 campaign in 2001, during which time the Chinese society is utter chaos and China promptly joined the WTO. China entered its economic boom, but the ultimate outcome is the social credit system. Highly recommended CCC talk here https://news.ycombinator.com/ite…

I'm certainly no expert but isn't it only cheating by western standards? Wouldn't it be interesting to have a culture that doesn't conform to that standard and see how it fares? Imho it's like a society where everything is GPL-ed, is it really so wrong? Sure social credit etc are horrible imo but I fail to see that the copying of smart ideas without punishment is inherently wrong. It's non-capitalistic, but inherentl…

This soft bigotry against Chinese culture is really tiring already. Chinese culture and people are all over the world: America, southeast Asia, singapore, and so many other places... To think that cheating and IP theft and scams is somehow part of Chinese culture or that these are virtues unqiue to these exotic orientals and we should drop our Western preconceptions is so unbelievably condescending... And how offensive to Chinese people, both in China and overseas, who earn their achievements though their honest and diligent labor, the kind of work we value here too.

Re: For now at least, China's citizens are embracing social-credit systems

#17

Post by 2stop »

thrwy_01 wrote: post #9
est wrote: post #5

Because in really many chinese people cheat. And cheaters are so rampant that people would rather ask Big Brother to step up. China started this national wide 诚信 campaign in 2001, during which time the Chinese society is utter chaos and China promptly joined the WTO. China entered its economic boom, but the ultimate outcome is the social credit system. Highly recommended CCC talk here https://news.ycombinator.com/ite…

We hear a lot about Chinese cheating, from sat scores to ip theft. I've long wondered - why is cheating endemic in China whereas you don't hear the same complaints about people in Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore; places with large ethnic Chinese populations which should be very similar culturally to mainland China. It seems implausible that the value systems in these places would have so widely diverged in a relatively…

[dead]

Re: For now at least, China's citizens are embracing social-credit systems

#18

Post by visarga »

> At the same time, a whopping 76 percent of survey participants said that “mutual mistrust between citizens” is a problem in Chinese society. Social credit systems are viewed as a means of bridging that trust gap.

I'd say on the contrary, when anyone could snitch on you, you'd lose your trust in society. The social credit system might have the exact opposite effect than intended.

Re: For now at least, China's citizens are embracing social-credit systems

#19

Post by threeseed »

thrwy_01 wrote: post #9
est wrote: post #5

Because in really many chinese people cheat. And cheaters are so rampant that people would rather ask Big Brother to step up. China started this national wide 诚信 campaign in 2001, during which time the Chinese society is utter chaos and China promptly joined the WTO. China entered its economic boom, but the ultimate outcome is the social credit system. Highly recommended CCC talk here https://news.ycombinator.com/ite…

We hear a lot about Chinese cheating, from sat scores to ip theft. I've long wondered - why is cheating endemic in China whereas you don't hear the same complaints about people in Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore; places with large ethnic Chinese populations which should be very similar culturally to mainland China. It seems implausible that the value systems in these places would have so widely diverged in a relatively…

> which should be very similar culturally to mainland China

Why though ?

Apart from looking similar they are quite different culturally from mainland China. A lot of which stems from the fact that they were former British colonies and have always taken inspiration from the West.

Re: For now at least, China's citizens are embracing social-credit systems

#20

Post by coldtea »

teekert wrote: post #6
est wrote: post #5

Because in really many chinese people cheat. And cheaters are so rampant that people would rather ask Big Brother to step up. China started this national wide 诚信 campaign in 2001, during which time the Chinese society is utter chaos and China promptly joined the WTO. China entered its economic boom, but the ultimate outcome is the social credit system. Highly recommended CCC talk here https://news.ycombinator.com/ite…

I'm certainly no expert but isn't it only cheating by western standards? Wouldn't it be interesting to have a culture that doesn't conform to that standard and see how it fares? Imho it's like a society where everything is GPL-ed, is it really so wrong? Sure social credit etc are horrible imo but I fail to see that the copying of smart ideas without punishment is inherently wrong. It's non-capitalistic, but inherentl…

>I'm certainly no expert but isn't it only cheating by western standards? Wouldn't it be interesting to have a culture that doesn't conform to that standard and see how it fares?

That is a question most don't ask. They assume the laws they have and the way they go about such laws are what fits every culture -- and every people at every circumstances.

And they don't just believe that those laws would be good for those people: they also believe that they can readily and without problems adopt them too, as if it's just a matter of will.

Truth is, those laws are not some universal constants, but a result of both inheriting the Greco-Roman culture and Roman legal conceptions, and 2 millennia of iterating on them (and of course Europe itself was divided into islands of elites and peasant chaos up to the times of Hugo and Dickens, and the US of course had the "wild west" frontiers where the rule of law wasn't exactly what is today).

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