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Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

nytimes.com

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Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#11

Post by SiempreViernes »

Someone1234 wrote: post #3
tunesmith wrote: post #2

The whole thing seems like a slow motion train wreck, except with the potentially and arguably happy outcome of them remaining in the EU.

Just to be clear, article 50 hasn't been revoked, the UK will still leave the EU with no deal on March 30th. This vote is very damaging to the government's position, but as it stands there's been no move, assurance, or guarantees, to stop article 50. If article 50 is activated it starts a two year countdown as the UK slowly moves out of the EU. Even if the government loses the no confidence vote, there's still no imp…

Yes, the deal was likely scrapped for the retarded reason that half of its proponents figured the deal wasn’t brexit enough, and saw the opportunity to shoot it down with no care for what to do with the resulting mess.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#13

Post by smacktoward »

pkaye wrote: post #5

Don't fully understand UK government structure but is it possible for the labor party to take over leadership and revoke article 50 before the deadline?

The existing government would have to lose the confidence of a majority of the members of the House of Commons. Then there could be an election, and if Labour won that election, they could then take over. (See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motions_of_no_confidence_in_th...)

So it's conceivable, but not without Labour managing to jump through a fair number of constitutional hoops first.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#14

Post by switch007 »

Someone1234 wrote: post #3
tunesmith wrote: post #2

The whole thing seems like a slow motion train wreck, except with the potentially and arguably happy outcome of them remaining in the EU.

Just to be clear, article 50 hasn't been revoked, the UK will still leave the EU with no deal on March 30th. This vote is very damaging to the government's position, but as it stands there's been no move, assurance, or guarantees, to stop article 50. If article 50 is activated it starts a two year countdown as the UK slowly moves out of the EU. Even if the government loses the no confidence vote, there's still no imp…

> Just to be clear, article 50 hasn't been revoked, the UK will still leave the EU with no deal on March 30th.

I don't feel you clarified anything.

Do you mean if article 50 isn't revoked that the UK will leave the EU (true if nothing else happens) or that there are no circumstances under which the UK can remain in the EU?

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#15

Post by NeedMoreTea »

pkaye wrote: post #5

Don't fully understand UK government structure but is it possible for the labor party to take over leadership and revoke article 50 before the deadline?

In the old days (pre 2011) the government would fall, and we'd be on the way to an election if Labour couldn't organise a minority government (and I seem to remember that was made subtly more difficult in the Act). See my comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18914244

(That thread should probably be merged with this one)

Governments are now 5 years, and surprisingly difficult to interrupt early thanks to the LibDem's Act during the coalition. Essentially the sitting party needs to commit suicide.

The Tory manifesto promised to abolish the Fixed-term Parliaments Act. Funny they don't seem to see that as a priority at the moment! :D

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#16

Post by humps »

pkaye wrote: post #5

Don't fully understand UK government structure but is it possible for the labor party to take over leadership and revoke article 50 before the deadline?

There's a confidence motion tomorrow evening at 7PM GMT. My understanding is, if the government loses a general election is triggered which takes a couple of months. So a new government could be in place before March 29th. However, I think if a general election was to happen then all sides would agree to ask for an extension to Article 50 and allow a few extra months for the new government to decide what to do. Another caveat to that: one manifest pledge in the election may be a 2nd referendum. If that party won then the 2nd ref would become the focus.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#17

Post by SiempreViernes »

tunesmith wrote: post #10
pkaye wrote: post #5

Don't fully understand UK government structure but is it possible for the labor party to take over leadership and revoke article 50 before the deadline?

Isn't the labor party also against revoking article 50? Corbyn at least? I thought it was only the liberal party that has been consistent in arguing for revoking it.

brexit did win a referendum, which is probably the main reason labor has been cautious, but Corbyn himself isn’t a great fan of the EU, that’s true.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#19

Post by kodablah »

tunesmith wrote: post #8
Someone1234 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to be clear, article 50 hasn't been revoked, the UK will still leave the EU with no deal on March 30th. This vote is very damaging to the government's position, but as it stands there's been no move, assurance, or guarantees, to stop article 50. If article 50 is activated it starts a two year countdown as the UK slowly moves out of the EU. Even if the government loses the no confidence vote, there's still no imp…

What I don't understand (and I am very ignorant!) is why the initial vote can't just be looked at as a stage in the decision process. Time has gone on, and the public has become more educated as to what the true effects of Brexit will be. Even leaving aside the question of how dishonest the pro-Brexit arguments were. It just seems reasonable to have another vote.

> It just seems reasonable to have another vote.

It seems absolutely unreasonable to me. It's hard to measure how certain tactics influenced the vote on either side. The voting process needs to be done with confidence and we should not so easily assume our peers are misinformed and/or so easily swayed. The efforts put forth by legitimate actors to campaign for their cause goes for not, as does confidence in the democratic process, when the outcome is just thrown away.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#20

Post by MatekCopatek »

tunesmith wrote: post #8
Someone1234 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to be clear, article 50 hasn't been revoked, the UK will still leave the EU with no deal on March 30th. This vote is very damaging to the government's position, but as it stands there's been no move, assurance, or guarantees, to stop article 50. If article 50 is activated it starts a two year countdown as the UK slowly moves out of the EU. Even if the government loses the no confidence vote, there's still no imp…

What I don't understand (and I am very ignorant!) is why the initial vote can't just be looked at as a stage in the decision process. Time has gone on, and the public has become more educated as to what the true effects of Brexit will be. Even leaving aside the question of how dishonest the pro-Brexit arguments were. It just seems reasonable to have another vote.

Because this would imply a public referendum is impotent - if you don't like the outcome, you can just keep campaigning and try again later.
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