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As Xenophon saw it

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Re: As Xenophon saw it

#11

Post by jaratec »

I enjoyed reading the Anabasis. The writing felt more like recollections of past events. Xenophon gives account of details by accident. For example, the greek army has marched deep in the persian empire, the battle of Cunaxa took place (and the greek encampment was raided on that occasion), then the greek leaders were killed, then they escape up north (and one realizes that was because there were no bridges over the Euphrates and the Tigris at the time), then they have to weather winter in hostile territory in mountainous eastern Anatolia. And at that point, Xenophon drops a remark about the women who were with them. I was so surprised, I had to read the phrase twice and even then I was in disbelief. What were women doing on a dangerous military campaign? Xenophon doesn't bother to explain.

It is wonderful that we have writings from a lost world, it is frustrating however that so little has survived.

Re: As Xenophon saw it

#12

Post by jamiek88 »

jaratec wrote: post #11

I enjoyed reading the Anabasis. The writing felt more like recollections of past events. Xenophon gives account of details by accident. For example, the greek army has marched deep in the persian empire, the battle of Cunaxa took place (and the greek encampment was raided on that occasion), then the greek leaders were killed, then they escape up north (and one realizes that was because there were no bridges over the…

Poor merchants, prostitutea and all kinds of people serving/scavenging from the army would follow the train in those times.

/r/askhistorians has a great thread on this, will try and find it.

Re: As Xenophon saw it

#13

Post by jamiek88 »

Koshkin wrote: post #10
Todd wrote: post #2

The Anabasis by Xenophon can be read in the original, with translations on alternating pages, as in the Loeb series. There are also interlinear translations available, such as this one: https://archive.org/details/anabasisofxenoph00xenoiala/page/...

The translation in the Loeb book is just delicious. While reading the original, I couldn't keep myself from reading the English text as well - it's too good. (Makes me think that studying foreign/ancient languages in order to read is not actually important in the least and might be better left to professional translators.)

That’s fine until you come across an untranslated text or a poor translation. Worse, a misleading translation.

Often you have to have an understanding of the language to know how well it’s translated. It’s a bit circular.

But when you read such a tremendous translation effort it does indeed raise those thoughts.

Re: As Xenophon saw it

#14

Post by sherr »

jamiek88 wrote: post #12
jaratec wrote: post #11

I enjoyed reading the Anabasis. The writing felt more like recollections of past events. Xenophon gives account of details by accident. For example, the greek army has marched deep in the persian empire, the battle of Cunaxa took place (and the greek encampment was raided on that occasion), then the greek leaders were killed, then they escape up north (and one realizes that was because there were no bridges over the…

Poor merchants, prostitutea and all kinds of people serving/scavenging from the army would follow the train in those times. /r/askhistorians has a great thread on this, will try and find it.

Probably a lot of slaves as well. One has to consider how a large band of soldiers survives "in country". A lot of pillaging, ravaging and general nastiness. Slaves were a fact of life back then.

Re: As Xenophon saw it

#15

Post by whatshisface »

motohagiography wrote: post #8

Have commented here before on the link between horsemanship (for which Xenophon's treatise is the philosophical foundation) and leadership, (Xenophon's key preoccupation according to the article.) Officer classes were usually trained in horsemanship for very good reason. It's one of the few transformative experiences that can be taught and practised. Before cars, horses were probably one of the few sources of what we…

>the transcendent "self-actualization" required for leadership

Spot on, in every interview I ask the hiring manager if they have ever jumped out of a plane, and if they say "no" my respect for them drops to zero (sorry, it's a fundamental subconscious response I can't help it). I call their boss, tell them that their subordinate forgot to self-actualize, and I get made their manager on the spot. It's how I got my last two jobs.

Re: As Xenophon saw it

#16

Post by leetcrew »

motohagiography wrote: post #8

Have commented here before on the link between horsemanship (for which Xenophon's treatise is the philosophical foundation) and leadership, (Xenophon's key preoccupation according to the article.) Officer classes were usually trained in horsemanship for very good reason. It's one of the few transformative experiences that can be taught and practised. Before cars, horses were probably one of the few sources of what we…

> Looking forward to reading Anabasis.

I highly recommend. it's one of the few classic texts I've been able to read almost as if it were a modern novel.

if you're interested, it's also a great "first text" to try and read in greek. Xenophon writes in a straightforward manner that's much easier to translate than contemporary plays and philosophical works.

Re: As Xenophon saw it

#17

Post by solonagathon »

solonagathon wrote: post #7
pasabagi wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, he did invent the word. Snark aside, I think the reason why Plato is so influential is Christianity - basically a radicalized form of his ideas.

He did not invent the word. In the funeral oration for example Thucydides has Pericles refer to the Athenians as a philosophizing people: Philokaloumen te gar met ' euteleias kai philosophoumen aneu malakias. Plato was probably the first to use the term in a technical sense, to refer to someone who spends his life as a 'professional' philosopher.

And of course Herodotus refers to Solon as a lover of wisdom in his Histories.

Considering my user name I guess I should have led with that reference.

Re: As Xenophon saw it

#19

Post by undershirt »

whatshisface wrote: post #15
motohagiography wrote: post #8

Have commented here before on the link between horsemanship (for which Xenophon's treatise is the philosophical foundation) and leadership, (Xenophon's key preoccupation according to the article.) Officer classes were usually trained in horsemanship for very good reason. It's one of the few transformative experiences that can be taught and practised. Before cars, horses were probably one of the few sources of what we…

> the transcendent "self-actualization" required for leadership Spot on, in every interview I ask the hiring manager if they have ever jumped out of a plane, and if they say "no" my respect for them drops to zero (sorry, it's a fundamental subconscious response I can't help it). I call their boss, tell them that their subordinate forgot to self-actualize, and I get made their manager on the spot. It's how I got my la…

i've jumped out of a plane (it was incredible of course), but i have no idea what you're talking about—but maybe I don't understand what "self-actualization" means.

Re: As Xenophon saw it

#20

Post by leetcrew »

Koshkin wrote: post #10
Todd wrote: post #2

The Anabasis by Xenophon can be read in the original, with translations on alternating pages, as in the Loeb series. There are also interlinear translations available, such as this one: https://archive.org/details/anabasisofxenoph00xenoiala/page/...

The translation in the Loeb book is just delicious. While reading the original, I couldn't keep myself from reading the English text as well - it's too good. (Makes me think that studying foreign/ancient languages in order to read is not actually important in the least and might be better left to professional translators.)

> Makes me think that studying foreign/ancient languages in order to read is not actually important in the least and might be better left to professional translators.

it really depends on your goals. if you are just reading for pleasure, it can be lovely to just read a good translation as written. if you are approaching the text more seriously, you need to be aware that the translation of many key words can be quite controversial in these texts. to make matters worse, there are instances where the only copies of the text have been damaged and scholars have inferred letters or entire words. these reconstructions can also be controversial.

you don't necessarily have to become a fluent reader to get the most out of a particular text, but I would at least recommend reading the translation side-by-side with the greek, preferably with a good commentary to consult. sometimes the arguments in the commentary can be as interesting as the text itself!

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