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Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

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Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#11

Post by MichaelMoser123 »

blacksmith_tb wrote: post #3

Hmm, always suspect when you see a thesis about a large and varied group of societies doing anything en masse. For example, today Iran is about 20% the size of the USA, but produces nearly as many engineers[1], in spite of being an Islamic republic. 1: https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2015/06/09/the-co...

Is there any hard / up to date data? I could only find this figure on tertiary education by country from the OECD (and the do not cover Iran), however Turkey isn't doing bad at all here.

https://data.oecd.org/eduatt/population-with-tertiary-educat...

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#12

Post by MichaelMoser123 »

porpoisely wrote: post #9
tomlock wrote: post #2

> In trying to explain the Islamic world’s intellectual laggardness, it is tempting to point to the obvious factors: authoritarianism, bad education, and underfunding (Muslim states spend significantly less than developed states on research and development as a percentage of GDP). But these reasons are all broad and somewhat crude, and raise more questions than answers. At a deeper level, Islam lags because it failed…

Interesting point. Descartes, who influenced science, math and philosophy, also placed god at the center of everything. Even his own existence ( cogito ergo sum ) depended on god existing and being fundamentally good. Newton also credited god for the natural motion of the planets and gravity in principia. And of course some of the giants in biology like Linnaeus and Mendel were clergymen. They were men of their times…

> I doubt religion is solely responsible for the arab world's lack of scientific research. It's probably a mix of political instability, levels of poverty, lack of leadership by the elites and dependence on oil, gas and natural resources for wealth.

The article sites some hard reason here but then argues them away: the Mongols sacking of Baghdad and the Spanish reconquista. I wonder how Europe would look like today if somebody had sacked Italy during the renaissance. In my book Europe was just lucky that it was shielded from significant disruptions (relative to the rest of the world) during the high and late middle ages due to geography and partition into competing centers.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#13

Post by charlysl »

blacksmith_tb wrote: post #3

Hmm, always suspect when you see a thesis about a large and varied group of societies doing anything en masse. For example, today Iran is about 20% the size of the USA, but produces nearly as many engineers[1], in spite of being an Islamic republic. 1: https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2015/06/09/the-co...

If you really want to upset an Iranian, call him an Arab. Iranians are not Arabs, and their language (and culture) is totally different, in spite of using the same alphabet. This unfortunately common mistake is up there with confusing Spaniards with Mexicans.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#14

Post by porpoisely »

MichaelMoser123 wrote: post #12
porpoisely wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting point. Descartes, who influenced science, math and philosophy, also placed god at the center of everything. Even his own existence ( cogito ergo sum ) depended on god existing and being fundamentally good. Newton also credited god for the natural motion of the planets and gravity in principia. And of course some of the giants in biology like Linnaeus and Mendel were clergymen. They were men of their times…

> I doubt religion is solely responsible for the arab world's lack of scientific research. It's probably a mix of political instability, levels of poverty, lack of leadership by the elites and dependence on oil, gas and natural resources for wealth. The article sites some hard reason here but then argues them away: the Mongols sacking of Baghdad and the Spanish reconquista. I wonder how Europe would look like today i…

The destruction of baghdad and the spanish reconquista are convenient excuses with very little merit. The islamic empire was already very old and in decline by the time of the mongol and spanish conquests. Also, much of eastern europe was conquered by the mongols. It hasn't stopped them from embracing science. China was conquered by the mongols, they have embraced science.

Europe ( italy mostly ) was lucky because the pope decided to "submit" to the mongols and they were rewarded handsomely with trade privileges. The italian renaissance was a direct result of immense wealth generated by trade with the mongol empire.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cum_non_solum

Without the mongol empire, there is no trade, no transfer of knowledge and technology from the east to the west and no italian wealth and hence no italian renaissance.

Interestingly enough, without the mongol empire ( or the collapse of it ), there is no columbus, no discovery of americas, no european exploration and therefore no enlightenment.

In 1480, the russians finally ended the reign of the Golden Horde and ended europe's trade link to the east. 12 years later, an italian sailor set out to find another trade link to the east.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_stand_on_the_Ugra_river

We aren't taught this in school but central theme of the past 500 years has been europe trying to establish trade links with the east ( primarily china and india ) that the mongol empire had provided them from the 1200s to the 1400s.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#15

Post by tomlock »

woodandsteel wrote: post #10
tomlock wrote: post #2

> In trying to explain the Islamic world’s intellectual laggardness, it is tempting to point to the obvious factors: authoritarianism, bad education, and underfunding (Muslim states spend significantly less than developed states on research and development as a percentage of GDP). But these reasons are all broad and somewhat crude, and raise more questions than answers. At a deeper level, Islam lags because it failed…

>Perhaps the author has heard of Leibniz's seminal work, Monadology? In this work Leibniz essentially argues that all action and causality in the universe is the result of God's great plan unfolding, that every action and reaction is predetermined, stored in every fragment of matter and that causality effectively does not exist. Leibniz's strange philosophy has had no impact at all on science in the West. > It is sim…

>Leibniz's strange philosophy has had no impact at all on science in the West.

What is this claim based on? His philosophy didn't have an impact on his own science, so perhaps a claim that a belief that God creates a mere appearance of causality, kills science, is a little overblown.

>The author did not deny that. He is talking about the overall trends.

While hand waving away GDP and other, more obvious indicators.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#16

Post by ImprovedSilence »

MichaelMoser123 wrote: post #12
porpoisely wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting point. Descartes, who influenced science, math and philosophy, also placed god at the center of everything. Even his own existence ( cogito ergo sum ) depended on god existing and being fundamentally good. Newton also credited god for the natural motion of the planets and gravity in principia. And of course some of the giants in biology like Linnaeus and Mendel were clergymen. They were men of their times…

> I doubt religion is solely responsible for the arab world's lack of scientific research. It's probably a mix of political instability, levels of poverty, lack of leadership by the elites and dependence on oil, gas and natural resources for wealth. The article sites some hard reason here but then argues them away: the Mongols sacking of Baghdad and the Spanish reconquista. I wonder how Europe would look like today i…

>>wonder how Europe would look like today if somebody had sacked Italy during the renaissance.

I’ve read (probably on Wikipedia..) that it’s theorized that the Renaissance was actually largely caused by the fall of Constantinople and the resulting migration of intellectuals and writings (from classical antiquity)from east to west back into Italy (and Florence specifically) The rebirth was for the west, the east (Byzantine empire) never lost the culture of knowledge.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#18

Post by charlysl »

Wildgoose wrote: post #5
blacksmith_tb wrote: post #3

Hmm, always suspect when you see a thesis about a large and varied group of societies doing anything en masse. For example, today Iran is about 20% the size of the USA, but produces nearly as many engineers[1], in spite of being an Islamic republic. 1: https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2015/06/09/the-co...

Excellent point - but to what extent is this because Iran (or Persia as was) has been an ancient developed civilisation reaching back into antiquity, unlike much more recent (Arab) nations such as Saudi Arabia? Or in other words, to what extent is this a cultural issue rather than a religious one?

Iran has a glorious past, but, by the end of the 19th century it was unbelievably backwards, specially when compared to an encroaching Europe. For instance, there were no roads at all. All transport was by camels and mules, still a land of caravansarais. There was no police, in fact, there was no state as we understand it; all the shah did was stay all day in the haram. The only institution that cared at all for the people was the clergy. The old dynasty collapsed in early 20th century, and the new shah, Reza, tried to emulate his model Ataturk and modernize the country in the western fashion. Basically, what they attempted was what the Illustration monarchs did in Europe in the 18th century. He and his son went a long way in doing this, but also clashed badly with the mullahs. The clash with the West and modernity was brutal, and it's consequences can be seen all the way to our days.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#19

Post by MichaelMoser123 »

porpoisely wrote: post #14
MichaelMoser123 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I doubt religion is solely responsible for the arab world's lack of scientific research. It's probably a mix of political instability, levels of poverty, lack of leadership by the elites and dependence on oil, gas and natural resources for wealth. The article sites some hard reason here but then argues them away: the Mongols sacking of Baghdad and the Spanish reconquista. I wonder how Europe would look like today i…

The destruction of baghdad and the spanish reconquista are convenient excuses with very little merit. The islamic empire was already very old and in decline by the time of the mongol and spanish conquests. Also, much of eastern europe was conquered by the mongols. It hasn't stopped them from embracing science. China was conquered by the mongols, they have embraced science. Europe ( italy mostly ) was lucky because th…

> Without the mongol empire, there is no trade, no transfer of knowledge and technology from the east to the west and no italian wealth and hence no italian renaissance.

> In 1480, the russians finally ended the reign of the Golden Horde and ended europe's trade link to the east. 12 years later, an italian sailor set out to find another trade link to the east.

Interesting, where does the silk road pass through Russia? I thought the end of trade between China with Europe had had more to do with the Ming dynasty closing in on itself (after the and of the Yuan dynasty). Go figure.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#20

Post by chewz »

MichaelMoser123 wrote: post #19
porpoisely wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The destruction of baghdad and the spanish reconquista are convenient excuses with very little merit. The islamic empire was already very old and in decline by the time of the mongol and spanish conquests. Also, much of eastern europe was conquered by the mongols. It hasn't stopped them from embracing science. China was conquered by the mongols, they have embraced science. Europe ( italy mostly ) was lucky because th…

> Without the mongol empire, there is no trade, no transfer of knowledge and technology from the east to the west and no italian wealth and hence no italian renaissance. > In 1480, the russians finally ended the reign of the Golden Horde and ended europe's trade link to the east. 12 years later, an italian sailor set out to find another trade link to the east. Interesting, where does the silk road pass through Russia…

> I thought the end of trade between China with Europe had had more to do with the Ming dynasty closing in on itself (after the and of the Yuan dynasty). Go figure.

Or decline of great trading cities of Central Asia after Timur armies destroyed their water canals during comquest...

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