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On Disbelieving Atrocities (1944)

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Re: On Disbelieving Atrocities (1944)

#11
>> Our awareness seems to shrink in direct ratio as communications expand; the world is open to us as never before, and we walk about as prisoners, each in his private portable cage.

This seems to be an evergreen phenomenon. The world today is more open and connected than it was in 1944, but with that openness has come an much greater capacity to live in a walled garden of our own making.

Re: On Disbelieving Atrocities (1944)

#12

>> On Disbelieving Atrocities >> Arthur Koestler (Jan. 1944) I wondered if the author is the Arthur Koestler, but Wikipedia tells me he was born in 1905, so if I read the following sentence correctly (i.e. meaning that the writer is 62 at the time of writing, in 1944), then the piece was written by another author of the same name, because the best-known Arthur Koestler was 39 in 1944: >> "I know" that, the average st…

I believe the . is a typo, and it's 27 years. That also lines up with the date he gives for his death, in 1970.

Re: On Disbelieving Atrocities (1944)

#13
post #8

At first nobody believed because there really was no concrete evidence. This was changed by Witold Pilecki: > During World War II, Pilecki volunteered for a Polish resistance operation that involved being imprisoned in the Auschwitz concentration camp in order to gather intelligence and later escape. While in the camp, he organized a resistance movement and informed the Western Allies of Nazi Germany's Auschwitz atro…

Pilecki was one tough dude. I always thought he got in, looked around and quickly left. But his biography describes how he participated in camp life for more than 2 years like other prisoners and with the same risk to his life. This guy was a true hero.

(this is based on chats with guides in Auschwitz)

Apparently survival inside the camp for this long was only possible if you knew how to climb the hierarchy, and Pilecki did it well. For example - on the day he (and a few of his friends) fled they were assigned to a job in a bakery. A job in a bakery is one of the best jobs you could possibly get there, as you can steal enough food to not die of starvation.

Re: On Disbelieving Atrocities (1944)

#14
The trouble with this - I can sympathize with the frustration of watching atrocities happening in your homeland and not being able to get people in another country far away to care. But I can also sympathize with the ordinary people in these countries far away wanting to live their lives and not wallow in every tragedy that happens around the world.

Because there's quite a lot of things happening all the time, even now, that at least the people involved would consider terrible atrocities. Have you even read about what the Burmese have been doing to the Rohingya? How about the new Chinese "Re-Education Camps" for Muslims there? Or what ISIS-associated factions are doing in Syria?

Re: On Disbelieving Atrocities (1944)

#15
post #14

The trouble with this - I can sympathize with the frustration of watching atrocities happening in your homeland and not being able to get people in another country far away to care. But I can also sympathize with the ordinary people in these countries far away wanting to live their lives and not wallow in every tragedy that happens around the world. Because there's quite a lot of things happening all the time, even n…

Yes to all, and I think it’s our responsibility as democratic citizens to be aware of them. What’s the point of having the right to vote and having people represent us if we’re not aware of what they should be dealing with wrt foreign policy, say? If everyone buries their head in the sand or only considers domestic issues, we don’t really have democracy. It becomes a charade that helps us feel reassured that we have freedom. Real freedom, and real democracy, come from an educated and aware populace. We can’t and shouldn’t look away from atrocities at home or abroad. It’s a global world, and we need to be able to direct the politicians who work for us.

Re: On Disbelieving Atrocities (1944)

#16
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pilecki was one tough dude. I always thought he got in, looked around and quickly left. But his biography describes how he participated in camp life for more than 2 years like other prisoners and with the same risk to his life. This guy was a true hero.

(this is based on chats with guides in Auschwitz) Apparently survival inside the camp for this long was only possible if you knew how to climb the hierarchy, and Pilecki did it well. For example - on the day he (and a few of his friends) fled they were assigned to a job in a bakery. A job in a bakery is one of the best jobs you could possibly get there, as you can steal enough food to not die of starvation.

True. He was very smart and built up a network that kept him alive.

Re: On Disbelieving Atrocities (1944)

#17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Parallels with contemporary climate deniers is stunning. You're right. I agree with you. But–and I say this with all respect and no judgment–I think the insight here is not to point at one's perceived opponents and say, "Yes! This describes my experience with them perfectly!"; but to ask oneself who are the screamers in ones own life who get one's own glossy-eyed stare. It is very difficult and often impossible to…

> It is very difficult and often impossible to pop someone else's bubble, so we should all work hard on popping our own. Huh? they won't listen to reason, so I should do what, exactly?

I don't know, maybe pretend e.g. the Nazis were convinced of the errors of their ways -- rather than defeated first militarily, and then shamed socially.

I'd say, "what you should do" is to organize with others and enforce boundaries on those who are in the "bubble" of not giving a (meaningful) fuck of continued organized existence of the human race. Deal with the mote in your own eye, just to shut Jesus up, and then get to work on the speck of dust in the eye of your neighbour. Turns out size doesn't matter, but what it blocks the view of, and that's one hell of a speck of dust.

The mote probably never meant shit in comparison but do it anyway, get rid of attack surface for people who are looking for excuses to not confront anyone in earnest. As if just knowing about Auschwitz was possible in a vacuum, without making oneself an enemy of the Nazis. They are obedient now, they will fall in line when you achieve critical mass with people who are worth their salt. So completely forget them until they do better, if they ever do. Don't put more stock in them than they themselves did. Focus on those who are not just a drain of resources, but that pollinate and challenge you in a way that leaves you and them better.

And notice the irony of you being downvoted without reply, instead of that downvoter instead criticizing something about themselves. You're supposed to not "think you're better than others", or consider your concerns more important than theirs -- but people will absolutely consider themselves better than you for allegedly not considering themselves better as others. But that's not for them to realize, I guess.

Re: On Disbelieving Atrocities (1944)

#19
From another great writer of the human condition ...

Musée des Beaux Arts W.H.Auden

  About suffering they were never wrong,
  The Old Masters; how well, they understood
  Its human position; how it takes place
  While someone else is eating or opening a window or just walking dully 
  along; ....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mus%C3%A9e_des_Beaux_Arts_(poe...

Re: On Disbelieving Atrocities (1944)

#20
As sentient animals emerging from nature I think the ability to look away from atrocity understandable. It permeates nature to its core. Predation, disease, decay, and death are everywhere outside of our human distraction bubble.

What's more interesting to me than the ability to look away is that we've developed a sense of urgency to change that. Not just for ourselves, but for other humans and animals around us. In general, as a species, we've moved significantly in the right direction towards reducing the atrocity.

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